Thursday, September 28, 2006
SF intimidation moves down south?
Councillors in New Ross Town aren’t happy with Sinn Fein’s leafletting tactics, with one FF councillor, Kevin Dwyer, seeking a public apology from the SF Chairman of the council, John Dwyer, over what he calls “a deplorable and despicable act of intimidation, [...] completely underhand intimidation of members of the public and public representatives.” Michael Sheehan, FF, adds, “‘Putting fliers on doors and windows and going onto private property might have seemed like a laugh and a joke at the time, but when you bring families into it it’s not very funny at all,’ while FG Cllr Ray Lawlor would prefer to keep party politics out of council chambers altogether. John Dwyer, for his part, calls it a publicity stunt and suggest FF will be talking to SF “with a view to forming a coalition” regardless.
Some questions are, does the shadow around SF (namely, the IRA), mean rough and tumble politics take on a more sinister meaning, and is the south ready to accept SF at (political) face value?
Rusty Nail @ 12:21 PM
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Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 12:56 PM
Just a general point I don’t think it is safe to encourage vigilante type politics. We see the problems in the North and we can see examples of the outcome dotted across the world. Generally it ends in grief. Internal politics should be based on democratic principles and should not have a direct link to physical force or groupings that can intimidate other than state agencies to enforce laws democratically decided.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 12:57 PM“...Internal politics should be based on democratic principles…
Fully agree Crat’, but what to do when there are elements in society who don’t abide by the same principles? Under no circumstances do I condone any type of vigilante behaviour, but we have seen here what happens when democracy breaksdown and stae forces of law and order are unwilling/unable to address the problem. Biased public representation, biased press/media, a retreat to polarised politics, doubt and uncertainty at all levels of society… Sound familiar?
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 01:14 PMwelcome to an ireland of equals.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 01:29 PMThe republic may get used to this intimidation by SF, these tatics have been deployed in northern ireland for many years!!
Bertie doesnt want them in the Dail, how can he expect Northern Ireland government to accept them
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 01:37 PMEric
I am not a great fan of the PSNI, but unfortunately have to agree with the argument that law and order is their job. However I believe their performance is lamentable and that many innocent people are suffering unnecessarily because of it. I think part of the problem is unquestionably to do with collusion but equally they haven’t been policing for so long that I begin to think they have forgotten what it means and how to do it. This needs to be sorted out and to my mind is much more important than trying to resuscitate the Assembly.
If we go down the route of the lynch mob we are entering an area that the mob, if it is organised, can be turned on any one of us for whatever purpose. The general activity can also cover others who are using it as cover for their own purpose.
In a large percentage of places where there are vigilante forces there eventually seems to be civil unrest. Now I am unsure if it is the civil unrest causes the vigilantes or the reverse but they are generally a bad sign.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 01:47 PMThis is the way the Shinners operate. Intimadating other parties. They just do not intimadate other parties they intimadate the voters as well. They will be calling at your door telling you to vote for them or they know where you live. Some politicians these boys they have it down to a fine art. Yet butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths. Dressed in fancy clothes and potray to be the people the voice of respectability
So now southern politics is experiencing what northern politics have had to put up with from the Shinners for years. Just be careful who you vote for you might just end up with a bunch of cowboys in the Dail called Sinn Fein with Gerry Adams Taoiseach. Lord perish the thought.Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 01:54 PMCrataegus, the police always have to operate within political constraints. It the 1990s they couldn’t ruffle paramilitary feathers without political clearance; they could observe but they needed permission to intervene.
Don’t be surprised if the paramilitary godfathers gain an even greater foothold in the realm of policing and justice prior to November 24. They might also be the recipient of the odd bung - in the interests of the ‘peace process’, of course. Influential political figures will probably also sing the praises of the godfathers and highlight their value as community leadership role models ....
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 02:02 PMErm, has anyone actually read the link provided? It may mean that you have to register, but it’s free
I don’t really know what I was expecting to read in the article, considering the headline of the post, but what I did see bears very little relation to some of the nonsense posted above.
True, posting protest letters on the doors of cllrs smacks of over exuberence, but that’s about the height of it! Cllr Ray Lawlor of FG even chastised the FF cllrs in question for twisting the issue for point scoring! and that’s somethinga FG cllr defending a SF council chairman!
Really, am a newbie posting on slugger, but am absolutely astounded by the disingeniousness and hypocricy on show!
sorry, I know it’s whataboutery, but I don’t remember seeing a similar hoo-haa when (SF) councillors were the subject of bomb warnings and death threats recently.. in fact I rmember some DUP representatives refusing to condemn.
geeez!
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 03:10 PMThey do not seem to have heard that the ballot is private nor that the police have had to be reformed because of their very obvious bias which was not towards republicans.
Can it possibly be something to do with the fact that (another) unionist worthy has been caught messing about with the election process? Surely not!
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 03:25 PM“They do not seem to have heard that the ballot is private “
Up to a point private—but SF was able to call at my neighbours door 3 times (yes three times) to remind him that he had yet to vote and offer yet another lift to the polling station. Some smelly collusion there.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 03:44 PMJust Sinn (scumbags) Fein, doing what they do best. Nothing new in that.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 03:51 PMBanshee
The way it works is this; each political party has people monitoring the polling stations, some like SF have several at each desk ticking of the electoral role as voters come in, some time during the day they leave or go to the toilet and the ticked of list is exported. It is illegal and should not happen. We need to reduce the number of monitors to one per party per polling station and they should be keep away from the officials. They are there to monitor general conduct not abuse the system.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 04:03 PMNo one seems to have responded to my previous post..
“ohdearme”, did you go to unison and read the article?
There’s a lot of self reinforcing of stereotypes going on here, endemic in the North. Actually ead the article and see how that matches up with certain peoples ingrained idea of how to judge everyone.
It’s that old cliche of decommissioning of mindsets again.. it is a huge issue to be addressed and, with respect, is something the unionist community- not exclusively- but in particular must face up to. This brand of political and religious socialisation occurring within swathes of the Unionist diaspora that preprogrammes generations with suspicion and, at its worst, hatred is probably the largest single obstacle in the way of a normal society now.
Surely this thread is a case in point? The article has been taken, twisted and presented as an opportunity for others of a like mind to further reinforce thier own particular stereotypes! Soon after, the actual truth of the event gets forgotten, but the old stereotypes have been reinforced.
Don’t mean to sound spiteful, but just get frustrated with seeing this happen day in day out throughout society, putting us another small step away from a just society.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 04:13 PM“Up to a point private—but SF was able to call at my neighbours door 3 times (yes three times) to remind him that he had yet to vote and offer yet another lift to the polling station. Some smelly collusion there.”
Or, they wait outside, haven’t seen the person and go back?
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 04:24 PMWelcome to the realities of ‘the north’, southern voters. You backed a party (FF) who are essentially ideological nationalist facsists like SF who turned every principle of democracy on its head to appease these people. Now you are getting a taste of it. To use northern parlance: “slap it up you”.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 04:33 PMTo hear the apologists for those who carried out the Northern Bank crime, which involved TORTURE of an innocent family, bleat about ‘bungs’ is priceless.
You’re going to realise what corruption really means if these people are allowed anywhere near power.
Frankly, the republic deserves it for its compliance in the process of letting the Provos become ‘respectable’. Enjoy.Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 04:36 PMMickyG
Often stereotypes are based on fact and no matter how many times you claim frozen mindsets doesn’t make it so. I have seen SFs election machine some of what they do is good and very effective some is down right dubious and possibly illegal.
Don’t mean to sound spiteful, but just get frustrated with seeing this happen day in day out throughout society, putting us another small step away from a just society.
No you have the wrong end of the stick the way to a fair and just society is for those who break the rules to conform to decent standards. Sticking our heads in the ground may mean we hear no evil and see no evil but it doesn’t make society fair.
True, posting protest letters on the doors of cllrs smacks of over exuberence, but that’s about the height of it!
In a NI context that is definitely intimidation. It depends who is posting and who you are. How would you like it if some independent Loyalists decided to poster your house? I would take it as a real threat and would be onto the Police. It is potentially very threatening. It is saying we know where to find you and this is what we think of you. Much depends on context.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 04:42 PMHappy now? No one’s read the actual article, it seems, yet here we have crazy statements from people like agape.
This kind of twisted nonsense seems daily bread for many like him/her, and then they will stare expressionlessly and and wash thier hands every time anticatholic racism manifests itself in blood.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 04:43 PMCrateagus
The context here is a protest Tansport Committee and the cllrs were associated with that policy.. i stick to my original assertion that it’s more overexuberance than (sectarian) intinidation.. would you not agree? Listen, I’m not saying I agree with it being done in this way, but I agree even less with this continual twisting that just gives an excuse for the narrow minded in society to remain so.
“In a NI context that is definitely intimidation”
it wasn’t in NI, point negated?!!
Crateagus, could you not be burying your head in the sand yourself -just a little- by seemingly refusing to acknowledge or address that the single biggest problem we face in society are the ingrained, mostly unreasonable, mindsets that prevail.. and sadly mosly within unionism.
Of course, as you say, if everyone followed decent rules that would be great.. but thats not really a critique that is anything other than utopianism!! (sorry!)
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 05:01 PMNickyG
wash their hands every time anti-Catholic racism manifests itself in blood
It is important that none of us wash our hands of ANY racism.
It is not anti catholic to criticise the conduct of political parties if they go over the edge. I have had my fair share of problems with Loyalist types and you cannot just take this sort of conduct lightly it is potentially threatening. If it were some Loyalist group I would say exactly the same, and as I say context is all important.
Yes it is in the South but this sort of thing just should not happen. Given that, the question then is are the councillors making political hay out of it, or do some for reasons not apparent actually feel threatened? I could see, given personal experience, how there could be a very real problem, but equally I can see a local politician or two making a lot out of nothing.
It shouldn’t have happened though paradoxically SF have probably gained from the publicity so in my opinion if the motivation was political then it wasn’t very clever. Good maxim in politics is never give your opponents publicity.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 05:21 PMIf the intimidation discussed above is true for Northern Ireland and if the voting irregularity in Coleraine is not an isolated case, shouldn’t you have democratic elections before you have an Assembly? Not to do so would produce a non-democratic Assembly that would not truly reflect all the voters in NI and would be of dubious legitimacy.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 06:28 PMNew Yorker
In my opinion need to tighten up on activities around Polling stations and a look at postal votes etc. if we do that then the process would be fairly democratic in fact probably better than in most countries, but we will be electing people into an Assembly whose structures enshrine sectarianism and there is no accounting for what people elect.
The issue about notes being illegally sent out of polling stations really does need to be addressed. How would you feel if a couple of blokes arrived at your door and told you that you had not voted and to get out and vote?
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 07:04 PMDon’t mean to sound spiteful, but just get frustrated with seeing this happen day in day out throughout society, putting us another small step away from a just society.”
Nicky G
Took your advice and read the article.
I agree with you that the action was not “sectarian” but it’s quite clear that the people concerned knew exactly whose door they were posting on. If a political opponent intentionally targets your home in this way, what legitimate point do you think they’re to make?I thought this comment from the Shinner in question was priceless:
“Cllr. John Dwyer said he was not going to respond to either point as ‘to do so would be to introduce party politics into the Chamber’”
For those too lazy to read the article, the mayor was also being called to account for attending some Provo’s commemoration in Belfast.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 09:57 PMAnna,
as you are getting on your high horse, if you cared to read the article carefully you would have noted that attending a commemoration, Provo or otherwise, in Belfast had nothing to do with his position in New Ross.This is first time I’ve ever seen New Ross described as a town.
Posted by on Sep 28, 2006 @ 10:08 PM
