Saturday, September 22, 2007
Reconsiderations and fears
SDLP Deputy Leader Alasdair McDonnell says the SDLP will move to firmer ties with Fianna Fail and thinks they will reconsider running for Westminster seats. Meanwhile, a SF councillor has offered an explanation for the timing of the FF decision, it was fear of the Army:
Mr McIvor said Fianna Fail had only been set up in the Republic in the 1920s after the British army left.
“Now, surprise, surprise. Once the British army has left the streets of the six counties, here comes Fianna Fail to first organise and then in a few years, fight elections when they are sure there are no British soldiers about,”
Fair Deal @ 11:00 AM
Should the SDLP and FF get married, would the former have to give up its association with the British Labour Party and with the European Socialist Party?
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 11:38 AMUncanny political insight from Mr.McIvor there.
With that sort of brilliant tactical analysis, FF are wasting their time even crossing the border.Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 11:39 AM*Mr McIvor said Fianna Fail had only been set up in the Republic in the 1920s after the British army left.*
Did McIvor really say “the Republic in the 1920’s”? If so he needs to attend a Sinn Fein re-education camp pronto, as a) the Republic didn’t come into existence until 1949 and b) even then SF didn’t accept it as the legitimate “Irish Republic” as evinced by the 1916 Proclamation.
Come to that I’m not even sure whether even today Sinn Fein yet accept the 26 County state as the legitimate Irish Republic, can anyone help me out?
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 12:08 PMHarry,
Come to that I’m not even sure whether even today Sinn Fein yet accept the 26 County state as the legitimate Irish Republic, can anyone help me out?Sinn Féin have said they recognise Dáil Éireann but I very much doubt that they recognise it as the legitimate parliament of the “Irish Republic”.
As for McIvor’s comments, he musn’t have heard of the Irish Civil War.
More interesting is Durkan’s belief that he thinks FF will reconsider the Westminster position.
He said that “if there’s an opportunity there and a representational job to be done, they will avail of it”.
I would love to hear him outline the opportunities and representational jobs that can’t be achieved via direct talks with the government through the British-Irish Council and through Stormont etc.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 12:54 PMMr McIvor almost sounds as if Sinn Fein are taking credit for getting rid of the british army!
last time i checked, the army was still here, and was it not the IRAs campigan tha kept them here?
anyway, i think if these links between the FF and SDLP become more closer, ull find that the SDLP will just become the northern Wing of the FF, the join into one, if and when the country becomes one.
Durkan will still be in charge, still do things thier own way, just with a more visable presence from FF, just enough to show the voters there voting for SDLP/FF allience, and then the shinners will really start to slip downt he pecking order,
i dont think the likes of Adams, Gerry Kelly,Maskey acutally realise how fickle thier vote is! less than 10 years ago it was the SDLPs vote, how many of them will again turn when they see bertie up with SDLP canditiates?
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 01:15 PMProblem for McIvor is that from when it was started up FF contained some of the IRA’s most acclaimed fighters.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 01:19 PMCuchulainn,
“last time i checked, the army was still here, and was it not the IRAs campigan tha kept them here?”
Isn’t it so that every section of the UK has an army barracks or two?
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 01:29 PMem>Isn’t it so that every section of the UK has an army barracks or two?</em>
Yep, every section of the UK, although I somehow don’t think it’s the British Army Fianna Fail canvessers will need to be frightened if their party starts to nick too many “SF” votes.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 01:59 PMAlister McDonnell has no authority to make statements like that. He must have forgot that he is vice leader of a socialist party. Saying he wants to form closer ties with a party with a track record of being the opposite of socialist (no NHS, private hospitals, in the pockets of property developers) is a direct breach of the Sdlp’s principals. If he wants to join Fianna Fail then that is his business, but he has no right saying that the rest of his party and it’s supporters will join it.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 02:07 PMMcDonnell is the reason I joined FF two years ago. Does he really think FF, The Republican Party will ever want to go to Westminster! FF will go with what its membership wants and I and other northern members of FF don’t want anything to do with Westminster. We can achieve what we need with London via our government in Dublin. McDonnell ought to join British Labour and Unionist Party proper and let the republicans within the SDLP join FF. Many already have which is spookily why FF are now moving northwards. Unionists can attend their parliament and we in FF can attend the elected assemblies on this island!
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 02:09 PMOops, my post should read McDonnell and not Durkan.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 02:10 PMI agree the votes are fickle and that the time is right to present the electorate with a new choice. When FF come, which I believe they will, I’ll give them a vote. It really is time for change, and new challenges.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 02:17 PMSurely real socialism died in the SDLP when Fitt and Devlin left?
Was it not they that insisted in the “Labour” bit in the name and people like Hume were happy enough to form a reincarnation of the old Irish Nationalist Party?I thought they were basically Green Tories now? Perfect for Fianna Fail? John Hume really would be happy.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 02:42 PMThere is a large percentage of the parties membership that see themselves as socialists regardless of others who act like Fianna Failers. The Sdlp is the Labour party in Northern Ireland and is the party that people with that political outlook have joined along with plenty of other who have no political outlook and would be happy to join Fianna Fail. As I said there are plenty of people that McDonnell doesnt speak for when he makes statements like this. He has no authority and only speaks for himself. The Sdlp is an international socialist party.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 02:55 PMRed & Wolfe- Whats the story with McDonnell if this merger goes ahead, do you think he would resign, stand as an abstensionist or risk handing his seat to the DUP by running as an Independent?
How long do you guys think it will take to set up FF for elections and is it possible for them to reverse the Westminister position of now?
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 02:57 PMI think this was a classic Ahern move. Do the bare minimum to keep the ‘organise in the North’ lobby happy and let events take their course.
Whilst today’s comments are interesting the real issue is how an SDLP conference would respond to a proposal from FF. More on http://www.oconallstreet.com .
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:10 PMI don’t think the SDLP will formally join FF it will probably vote on a merger and most of its members will then amalgamte with FF- most of whose current members up north are ex stoops.
FG and Irish Labour will probably cross the border too and subsume the rest of those former stoops aligned to them and we will have the nationalist community voting for all parties available down south with the probable exception of the ailing PD’s.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:16 PMMcDonnell would jump in bed with Fianna Fail with no problem- thats what he said. He just wants to make sure he is still aloud to go to Westminister. Part of the problem for the socialist wing is that they do not know what Irish Labours plans are; some of thier member’s have said they want to run in Northern Ireland against the Sdlp, which isnt doing them any favors if theyre wanting to attract annoyed Sdlp members to join them. They should do the same sort of thing that Fianna Fail are doing; the Fianna Failers in the Sdlp will go towards them, and the socialists will go towards an all Ireland Labour party. However Fianna Fail has the upper hand as it is well organized whereas Irish Labour is not; for allot of members of the Sdlp it’s a question of dropping principals and doing well electorally (join with Fianna Fail) or stick to principals and not do very well in elections (join with Labour). The Irish Labour needs to be decisive either way and offer a viable alternative to Fianna Fail in Northern Ireland for Sdlp members.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:17 PMi also see that Mr McIvor is failing to see that FF were the smae members of FF that helped get rid of the British in 21! r maybe he sees that as more of an FG thing!
Red,
I dont think that the SDLP forging closer links with FF puts thier socialist principles at any risk, they can continue to have thier own way in the north, they may just support FF more so than they do now.
yes there is a large section of the party who lean towards labour, but i dare suggest not the same number than would lean towards FF. how do u know we wont lose them members anyway, if FF decided to go alone!
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:22 PMTo Cuchullain: of course a merger with Fianna Fail would put the Sdlps socialist principals at risk; Fianna Fail is not a socialist party so merging with it will definately dilute the Sdlps socialist principals. Your kidding yourself if you think a northern wing of Fianna Fail which has Sdlp members in it will be able to continue as a socialist party.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:29 PMI find the reaction of the DUP to this news to be one of the most interesting aspects of this. They are remarkably muted, almost uninterested, to the point of saying ‘whatever...’ like a bored teenager. One would have thought they’d be up in arms at the thought of the governing party of the irish republic seeking to extend its mandate north of the border into their territory. Why are they so muted?
Obviously they feel Fianna Fáil don’t constitute a threat to them or their traditional viewpoint. Why would they think this?
I have had the impression over the last decade that much of the deal regarding n. ireland was agreed 10 years ago and the rest has just been the outworking of this - the so-called ‘top-down’ management of the process. It would appear that all parties involved have also already agreed, in secret, what the purpose and timetable of Fianna Fáil’s movement north will be and so Paisley, Donaldson, Campbell et al far from screaming for ‘clarification’ about this move are happy to let it proceed without much to say about it.
There may be a number of reasons for this. Firstly they may have been informed that it was just a load of tactical waffle designed to achieve some sort of outcome favourable to both the dublin establishment and northern unionists.
Alternatively it may be part of an agreed programme for taking control of the situation by the two governments which sees southern influence increasing in the north but only as part of an arranged plan whereby the ‘british isles’ as a political entity comes back to the fore - Home Rule in other words, cast in the language of ‘mutual interests’ and ‘cultural closeness’. The massive anglicisation and anglo-americanisation of Irish society which has taken place under Ahern’s leadership would appear to support this view and may be the reason why unionists are prepared to go along with a much more brit-friendly counter-revolutionary Fianna Fáil.I have wondered if the Love Ulster march in Dublin - which was eventually bussed from Parnell Square to the front of the Dáil where a paramilitary tattoo was allowed to take place but which was not reported in the media - was not in fact a demand and a test imposed by unionism on the southern government to prove their credentials prior to agreement. The point being to see if they were prepared to transgress the shibboleths and taboos of irish republicanism by allowing a full orange march to pass the GPO and parade in military fashion before the Dáil. Donaldson was one of the leaders of that march and gave an address outside the Dáil.
It’s interesting to note that the photo which the BBC have used to accompany the story about Alasdair McDonnell and the SDLP is a photo of Ahern in the British House of Commons with Blair beside him. The message would appear to be - ‘roll on Home Rule, all taboos to be abandoned’.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:39 PMThanx for the reply Red- agreed I I don’t think Labour will do as good as FF but may buck that trend in the odd constituency if they have been joined by a personable and hard working SDLP candidate.
All of this will be seen in a different light however if FG announce they too will be moving up- SDLP members will then look at their options accordingly..
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:39 PMAnother problem in the mix for Sdlp members is the issue of d’hondt. Do they split into a Sdlp/Fianna Fail party and a Sdlp/ Labour party, both doing well overall, but end up with no place in the executive as they would officially be two different partys? Like I said earlier, this is a problem for socialist members- merge with Fianna Fail and create a strong but unsocialist party, or stick to principals? People like McDonnell arent helping this as they are forcing people into an ultimatum which could lead to a major split or force people to abandon thier beliefs; by saying that the merger with Fianna Fail is the natural progression, they are ignoring the underlying principals of the party and not offering the members a say; for all he knows allot of the party may not want to touch Fianna Fail with a bargepole.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:47 PMred, what about the theory of the SDLP being an umbrella party? some would suggest the SDLP are now done with what they set out to do, and they should let other partys get on with the rest,
let FF come north, let the sdlp members join iot, the same for the others labour and FG,
it will happen sooner or later!, how many of of the sdlp party membership cares about thire socialist views, and just are thier because they dont agree with the SF leadership and history?
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:50 PMIf the left-wing of the SDLP dont want to merge into Fianna Fail…
And if the left-wing of the UUP dont want to merge into the Tories…
Isn’t there space for an imaginative move like refounding the old Northern Ireland Labour Party - which could have close fraternal ties to both the UK and Irish Labour Parties?
People often forget the success of the old NILP, even overtaking the Nationalist party in the 60s.
Posted by on Sep 22, 2007 @ 03:56 PM
