Wednesday, July 12, 2006
Reclaiming ‘Ulster’
A post on ie-politics got me thinking..
Marianne Elliot, in the prologue to her book The Catholics of Ulster, says that few Catholics today would admit to an “Ulster” identity, even less than those who adhere to a “Northern Ireland” allegiance. Elliot argues that it is surely high time for Ulster Catholics to re-assert their regional identity and challenge the view that “Ulster” necessarily means Protestant.
The point rang true with me - when I go to watch Irish rugby games, I sometimes take an Ulster flag (I wouldn’t fly the Tricolour at rugby, as it’s an all-Ireland team) - and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been abused by southernerns for a percieved Britishness (the abusers tend not to realise the meaning of the nine-county flag).
So - on this, one of the most high-profile days in ‘Ulster’ - is it time Nationalists started reclaiming the identity?
Aaron_Scullion @ 07:45 AM
Hope so, then we can build up a common regional identity together.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 08:51 AMThese labels can be very confusing. ‘Ulster’ can have 9 counties or 6; ‘Ireland’ can have 32 counties or 26.
I noted that when Ulster celebrated its European rugby success a few years ago they had a Northern Ireland flag draped across the front of the open-top bus.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:07 AMWhich raises an interesting question of which flag which should fly (if any!) at Irish rugby matches. I agree that the Tricolour is not representative of the island as a whole that the team represents but surely four different provincial flags are not the answer?
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:07 AMI must get hold of this book. It would be good if its success contributed to a revival of interest in my old pal, Geoff Bell’s 1970’s book The Protestants of Ulster. Be good to read them both in conjunction - more especially given the intervening passage of time.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:08 AMI haven’t experienced this at all - not even the confusion of southern eejits that you described although I wouldn’t doubt it at a rugby match - maybe less of a problem at GAA matches?).
For me (and the nationalists, republicans and even catholics ;-) I know) the Ulster identity is not a problem at all. To paraphrase the Thatch, Ulster is as Irish as Leinster, and I really can’t see where Marianne Elliot takes her cue from. The Ulster Cycle is the corner stone of Irish mythology, the ulster championship is as hotly contested as any of the provincial championships, and ulster GAA clubs are on the up. I’m not convinced by this “ulster denial” at all - anybody else experience this?
Northern Ireland - now thats a completely different kettle of fish!!!Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:11 AMWell,
I’ve been banging this drum for a long time here on Slugger.
One of the reasons Nationalists don’t care much for Ulster is the preponderance of hostile organizations with Ulster in their title.And Unionists tried to change the name of NI to Ulster in the 50s - in order, no doubt, to give their gerrymandered state an air of historical authenticity.
Folk should remember that when Ireland was partitioned, Ulster was partitioned, and some principled 6-county Unionists resigned from Unionist movements because of it. If I recall correctly the Cavan UVF had 2000 members, with more in Donegal and Monaghan, before partition.
The principal reason why NI is a failed political entity, with politics stalled for 80+ years on the Constitutional question, is that Nationalists realise (correctly) that they are an artificial minority in a state designed to maximize British territory whilst keeping a Unionist majority.
If Ulster Protestants ever get around to wanting to live in an agreed state where politics can develop naturally, they should focus on the territory of the authentic province of Ulster.
Not that I am expecting anything any time soon.
But if they did, they may find “The Catholics of Ulster” more willing to compromise than they thought.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:21 AMAaron, Elliot’s “the Catholics of Ulster” lacks the common touch portrayed in Susan McKay’s “An Unsettled People”.
Elliott’s final two sentences may discomfort traditional Irish nationalists and their four green fields imagery:
But I would suggest that such confidence may may be no bad thing, for their new-found ‘place in the sun’ is firmly located in Northern Ireland. A sense of ‘belonging’, without the resentment, may yet prove to be the most important legacy of the Good Friday Agreement.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:22 AM“Ulster” and “Ulaid” it’s predecessor, have always been territories which had very fluid borders. At times it was as small as counties Antrim and Down but at others it included places like Louth and Sligo.
Today some people include Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan as being part of “Ulster” while others see it as being contiguous with Northern Ireland.
The last 80 years have seen the IFS/Republic re-define “Ireland” and “Irish” in a much more partisan and exclusive way and the same has happened with “Ulster”.
Just as I believe that the term “Irish” needs to be much more inclusive I also think that there is a case for broadening the Ulster identity. However these things are more easily said than done.
As for what flags should be flown at Irish rugby matches, I think a plain green one with the IRFU logo is most appropriate.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:22 AMNevin
‘Ulster’ can have 9 counties or 6
Um, no it can’t. People who say ulster when then mean NI are fundamentally wrong.
Some things are a matter of opinion, and some things are a matter of fact.
Circles,
I’m not convinced by this “ulster denial” at all - anybody else experience this?
I’m not sure how much Nationalists aspire to being Ulstemen - that’s an interesting point as well - but I think that people in GB and the Republic think of bowler hats and sashes when they hear the word Ulster. That’s more what I was getting at.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:22 AMToo many unionists use ‘Ulster’ as a code for ‘not Irish’, and I imagine most Catholics do not want to give succour to that attitude.
If ‘Ulster’ is used in its correct context (i.e. as a province of Ireland), in things like rugby, GAA, athletics, language, etc, then Catholics and nationalists have no problem with it.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:26 AMI was in Croke Park on Saturday with 50,000 others who were loudly and colourfully proclaiming both their county and their Ulster provincial. identity. (One would presume that the majority of the attendance were nationalists and Catholics from Ulster.)
I think the issue here is that Catholics don’t identify with the six-county ‘Ulster’.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:26 AMWell on my Blogger profile I say I’m from Ulster, Ireland (or specifically Cúige Uladh). I think problems arise when ‘Ulster’ is substituted for ‘Northern Ireland’, a phenomenon which no doubt irritates nationalists. But I don’t think that any nationalist from the northern nine counties would have a problem in describing themselves as being from Ulster- it’s an historical fact, and as others say the GAA championships are based on this provincial model.
The key is that we are from Ulster, one of the four provinces which make up Ireland. We are not from ‘Ulster’, a six county invented entity which is conceptually separate from the other 26 counties on the island.
Ulster and ‘Ulster’ (aka Northern Ireland) are separate entities, and nationalists will happily identify with the former, but not with the latter.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:26 AMAaron, I was referring to the various usages of the terms ‘Ulster’ and ‘Ireland’. Should I read anything into your silence on ‘Ireland’? ;)
‘Britain’ is also misleading. It can be used for the larger island often labelled Gt Britain; it can also be used as political shorthand for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
I queried the use of ‘Britain’ for the official handbook of Government statistics and the label was changed eg Britain 1999, UK 2004.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:32 AMStephen, do you imagine many Catholics or Nationalists have a problem with the Irish government’s use of ‘Ireland’ for the 26 counties?
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:35 AMNevin - you were right about Ireland, but not about Ulster. As has been pointed about above - bearing in mind that all geographic labels are fluid - the idea of Ulster as 6 counties is a politically-loaded contrivance.
I used to object to the use of ‘Britain’ as shorthand for ‘UK’, but I don’t mind it now. It’s just what people say.. People tend to me mean UK, not GB, when they say it - in as much as there is no political entity ‘Great Britain’ - it’s just a geographic term. When they said ‘britain’, they generally mean the state.
do you imagine many Catholics or Nationalists have a problem with the Irish government’s use of ‘Ireland’ for the 26 counties?
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:39 AMCúige Uladh
But El Madator, cúige means fifth ...
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:40 AMNevin,
Yes.
It dates, of course from the original 1937 Constitution, which still included the original Articles 2 aand 3, so in fact the name did apply to the whole country. The ‘problem’ was only actually introduced with the GFA and the changes to Articles 2 and 3.
Which makes the situation completely different to the use of ‘Ulster’ by unionists to refer to NI.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:41 AMNo Nevin. Cúigiú is fifth.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:43 AMNevin,
... cúige means fifth ...
And indeed there used to be five. But I think you knew that, and are just messing.
Did you know that County Tipperary is divided into two parts - north and south? And do you know what they are called? The ‘north Riding’ and the ‘south Riding’. Funny, huh?
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:44 AMAaron, Ireland 26 and Ulster 6 are both political rather that geographical labels. I find it a little curious that nationalists get annoyed about the latter but not the former.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:45 AMI’m catholic, from the Glens of Antrim, and would describe myself as an Ulsterman first and an Irishman second. Naturally that’s the 9 county Ulster. It helps that I have an Irish name specifically associated with Ulster though.
Usually I give my nationality as Northern Irish, as that’s where I was born, brought up and now pay my taxes. I’ve always noted (to paraphrase the statement above) that Northern Ireland is as Irish as Munster, where my mother is from, despite what my Free State relations might say.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:46 AMThis Elliott book does indeed sound a little dodgey. Not only does she apparently claim that an NI identity is preferable to an Ulster one among northern “catholics”, but the final 2 sentences quoted by Neville (Longbottom?) that “their new-found ‘place in the sun’ is firmly located in Northern Ireland” is so pie in the sky that I’m wondering what kind of rocket she actually is.
Surely books should clearly be labelled fiction when they cross into the realm of fantasy. As my ma always said if ya believe all ya read, Neville, ye’ll eat all ya see.Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:47 AMNevin - sorry about the names mix up there fella!!!
1000 apologies!Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:48 AMIreland 26 and Ulster 6 are both political rather that geographical labels
I don’t accept that Ireland 26 has to be a political label. It’s just a convienient shorthand for Republic of Ireland.
Of course, it can be used politically, but that’s a different issue.
Ulster 6 is only a political term.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:50 AMAaron “People who say ulster when then mean NI are fundamentally wrong.” Emm no, they simply have a different definition. As I stated initially Ulster has been the most geogrpahically fluid of Ireland’s provinces and as the provincial borders are not constitutionally defined anywhere, if enough people see Ulster and N.I. be comntiguous, then their opinion is as valid as any other.
Matador “Ulster and ‘Ulster’ (aka Northern Ireland) are separate entities, and nationalists will happily identify with the former, but not with the latter.”
Again a matter of opinon masquerading as fact. take another example. If I was to say “Ireland” and “Ireland” (aka The Republic) are separate entities do you think everyone would agree?
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 09:51 AM
