Thursday, April 03, 2008
“Ranting against inadequate policing lets off steam, but is a diversion, like attacking critics..”
No-one involved seems to have published any statements on this yet, and the UTV News report doesn’t appear to be online, so this is partly based on my viewing of that report at 6pm. At today’s public meeting of the Policing Board, Chief Constable Hugh Orde took the opportunity to respond to the Sinn Féin party line on recent anti-social behaviour and criminality - as mentioned here - and this brief, and apparently sole, online report notes the “furious row” which developed.
Sir Hugh Orde said Sinn Fein had made unwarranted attacks on his officers after recent murders in West Belfast and after last weekend`s violence in Belfast city centre. But Mr Maskey said Sir Hugh Orde`s comments were disgraceful, patronising and arrogant.
To which I can add that, in the report I saw, Sinn Féin’s Alex Maskey also demanded an apology. And Hugh Orde responded by stating that he stood by his statement to the Policing Board. Update Courtesy of Typhoo, we have that report I mentioned. Adds A Belfast Telegraph report
In case anyone’s wondering, the title of the post is taken from Fionnula O’Connor’s article in the Irish Times, as noted here
It may be that leadership status has to be won afresh in west Belfast. Ranting against inadequate policing lets off steam, but is a diversion, like attacking critics - as Adams may have found out already.
Adds From the Belfast Telegraph report
At the monthly Policing Board meeting in Belfast, Sir Hugh conceded that his force was not perfect but vehemently denied that his officers were failing to act against crime.
“Broad statements saying my force is not up to it merits a response from me as I believe my force is up to it,” he said.
He said Sinn Fein’s stance was at best manipulative and at worst anti-police and that he had requested a meeting with Gerry Adams about the matter.
His comments drew an angry response from Sinn Fein, with Alex Maskey demanding a public apology.
He said the suggestion that his party was anti-police was deeply unhelpful in building relationships between the force and republicans.
Pete Baker @ 08:32 PM
[related]Perceptions of Crime: Findings from the 2006/07 Northern Ireland Crime Survey [pdf file]
Fewer people think it’s worth while reporting crime so reported crime figures are going down - isn’t one of the findings ...
Posted by on Apr 03, 2008 @ 09:36 PMGiven that there are no powers in the Assembly to deal with inadequate policing, ranting against it is about all SF can do.
And if the crime and perception of it in West Belfast doesn’t indicate inadequate policing, then what the hell does?
Posted by on Apr 03, 2008 @ 10:17 PMEnjoyed - staight talking is good.
Posted by on Apr 03, 2008 @ 11:11 PMI support the rant wholeheartedly.
Posted by on Apr 03, 2008 @ 11:48 PMI have been as critical as anyone on here about Sinn Fein’s over reaction to criticism, especially to Squinter and the Andersonstown News article. However I must agree with Alex Maskey and his understandable anger at Hugh Orde’s patronising arrogant reply to PSNI criticism. If Orde thinks that the negative comments about his force are coming from people who are simply anti-police he is living in one hell of an ivory tower. I have dealt with the PSNI recently in respect of interface trouble and anti social elements and believe me Mr Orde you haven’t a clue or being advised by a similar gushing, fawning clique that surrounds Gerry Adams. ARE BOTH YOU PEOPLE FOR REAL?? From experience I have found that SOME Sinn Fein members are simply intellectually incapable of formulating strategies to cope with crime and anti social behaviour. By the same token I have also found that SOME PSNI officers are COLD, ALOOF, ARROGANT, INDIFFERENT, MOCKING and more interested in Take Away Opening times than policing these areas. You should contemplate your own navel before lecturing others. The people who have been most loudest in their criticisms of both Sinn Fein & the PSNI are the communities who are crying out for decent accountable policing and have NO agendas. I should also add that I have dealt with people from Unionist/Loyalist areas and they are similarly scathing about policing AND their inadequate political representatives. It sounds like Mr Orde is covering up the ineptitude of his own force and their embarrassing record of crime solving by blaming others and that is shocking. If he could be bothered to come down from Cloud Knock and see for himself he would realise that those most vehement in their criticism of Sinn Fein also find the PSNI action inadequate and lacking. Stop resorting to stereotype Hugh, it ill becomes you and insults those of us struggling to keep some semblance of normality in these areas because lets face it if we had to depend on your force we would have TOTAL anarchy.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 12:28 AMThey sent a helicopter to save me when knife wielding thugs were doing the unneedful.
If anything the searchlight helped the hoods,
I didn’t need to be in the spotlight, anyway, SF showed up two days later.
Stay indoors, buy insurance.
Be safer
G.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 12:40 AMActually Alex, as an elected representative, you and many of your ilk don’t get enough of a public chiding.
Time some elected representatives realised that the problems do not get solved by hand-wringing and manipulation of their own “smoke-screens” which are formulated under the guise of scrutiny.
I’d like to see some more of our non-elected officials speaking this plainly to elected representatives. I think - as someone who has worked with both - that elected representatives have got off for far too long with making their snide remarks from the sidelines under the guise of “scrutiny” of public services. One bugbear of mine was stunted ex-teacher John Dallat, who loved playing to the cameras at Public Accounts Committees, and yet never once played a part in presenting a solution to any of the problems posed.
It’s very easy to do that indeed. Not so easy to have to run a service with over 8,000 personnel, and a budget of millions, in an area constantly in the public domain.
I do not reserve what I am saying here purely for the above SF/police issue. A lot of difficult decisions are STILL to be made across a lot of difficult issues - and I ain’t seeing the results that my taxes and rates are paying for - least of all when it comes to so-called political leadership from the ineffective bunch that we are presented with every few years to vote for.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 12:47 AMLURIG wrote: “It sounds like Mr Orde is covering up the ineptitude of his own force and their embarrassing record of crime solving by blaming others and that is shocking.”
It’s such a gift that I can’t resist:
The Raven wrote: “It sounds like Mr Maskey is covering up the ineptitude of his own party and their embarrassing record of tackling crime through community contacts by blaming others and that is shocking.”
Weren’t too many manners put on the PSNI today. I repeat what I wrote above - I’d love to see more officials take elected representatives to task for their woeful track record of management which remains hidden under the smoke-screen of “our role is merely to scrutinise.”
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 12:56 AM“our role is merely to scrutinise.”
I am perturbed by the lack of breadth of the Shinners, they’re a bit of a liability.
If being tossed in the back of a Saracen was a qualification for anything, a lot of Squaddies would be in Parliament.
G.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 01:31 AMAre there any people living in West Belfast who are members of the PSNI? Are the public representatives in West Belfast encouraging eligible people to apply to the PSNI? In NY on and off-duty cops play a vital role in keeping the areas where they live fairly safe and hoodlum free.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 04:40 AMLet’s not forget how difficult this all is. I was sat in the car yesterday in the queue going up through the lights at the top of the Whiterock. During that time three young guys - late teens / twenties - proceeded up the road spraying, trying cars and business premises’ doors. There must have been around ten crimes or potential crimes committed in the course of time it took them to reach and turn down the Whiterock.
Would I recognise them - no - all hoods and hats.
You can check out their handiwork. There is a large “Bill” sprayed on the up-road side of a grey telephone box about 200m below the lights.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 07:09 AMRaven
Weren’t too many manners put on the PSNI today. I repeat what I wrote above - I’d love to see more officials take elected representatives to task for their woeful track record of management which remains hidden under the smoke-screen of “our role is merely to scrutinise.”
Thing is, he is 100% correct and you’re full of it. Policing and justice are not devolved, and there is little SF can do, directly, to solve this problem. In terms of the performance of the police force, all they can do is scruntinise, weakly apparently. That is a sense a result of their failure to negotiate better and maybe in that sense their own fault.
Anywhere else on the planet both the Government and the police would be taking a hell of a lot of stick for the levels of crime in West Belfast.
Orde’s comments are outrageous, and they are the smokescreen: the PSNI’s record is cack.Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 07:52 AMAnywhere else on the planet both the Government and the police would be taking a hell of a lot of stick for the levels of crime in West Belfast.
lol, u serious?
The wild west has gone unpolicied for years - essentially a no go area. You can’t expect things to change overnight. There is a culture of attacking police, not co-operating in West Belfast. At the end of the day you reap what you sow. SF owed many years of hatred against the pealers in west belfast, those seeds have grown into ugly weeds wearing baseball hats and hoodies. Eventually they will die but these things take time.
No-where else in NI is like West Belfast - I wonder why that is....Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 08:07 AMlol, u serious?
Damn straight.
The wild west has gone unpolicied for years - essentially a no go area. You can’t expect things to change overnight. There is a culture of attacking police, not co-operating in West Belfast. At the end of the day you reap what you sow. SF owed many years of hatred against the pealers in west belfast, those seeds have grown into ugly weeds wearing baseball hats and hoodies. Eventually they will die but these things take time.
No-where else in NI is like West Belfast - I wonder why that is....First up - I’m not entirely sure that there is nowhere else as bad as West Belfast. The problems in West Belfast are not entirely unknown elsewhere in Northern ireland, and they are sure as hell known in the urban Republic and urban Britain. There is soemthing nasty underlying the adsertion that Westies are somehow a different class of animal from everyone else.
Second, by this logic, SF acceptance of the police should have had a positive effect as the net result would be moving from a situation with NO police and NO support to one where there was, at a minimum SOME police and SOME support.
No, we can’t expect things to change overnight, but we can expect positive movement, leadership and a change in tone. You can argue whether SF’s delivery of that has been adequate, but it is clear they have provided at least some opening by agreeing to support the police force. I have seen absolutely nothing from the PSNI.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 08:59 AM“There is something nasty underlying the assertion that Westies are somehow a different class of animal from everyone else.”
They are quite cute though, aren’t they?:
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 11:18 AMEven cops learn
The presence of police in the Markets or most of W Belfast produces the usual response from the rentamob culture fostered and encouraged by Sf. Ira etc etc.Witnesses are available at the drop of a hat to prove
Seamus was nowhere near the event
The Brutal Police beat him upEven the cops learn-- as one I know put it
“ I don`t give a fuck if they eat each other, I`m not getting hurt for anyone”(An attitude incidentally I have heard expresses about distubances in Port Rush and Port Stewart)
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 11:38 AMBarnshee
With that attitude they dont deserve to be officers and they sure as hell dont deserve even the slightest respect
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 12:12 PMCops are pragmatic ordinary people. They soon learn whether they can actually make a difference. If the courts don’t back them up, they become indifferent. They also know the chances of actual prosecution in many cases are virtually zero.
The attitude of a lot of yobs is not something that can be dealt with easily by cops or politicians. We may just have to learn to live with it.Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 12:56 PMAnyone remember Alex Maskey on tv early one morning saying something needed to be done about stabbings ? Kinda dried up later that day when it was revealed that the killing of Robert McCartney was not your run - of - the - mill murder.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 01:11 PMKensei, in a bout of remarkable oratory, and in a show of considered thought, wrote: “Thing is, he is 100% correct and you’re full of it.”
I’ll go back to the gist of what I was writing for the hard of understanding. Too long has it been a comfortable situation for Sinn Fein to sit at the sidelines and snipe. Similarly, it has been so on any range of issues for *all* the political parties.
Time to earn your corn. Given that Mr Maskey has put his head above the parapet, it’s only appropriate that someone who actually works for his living is irked enough to take a swipe at it. The record of politicians over the past year has been one of directionless obfuscation, with a very few notable exceptions.
Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps there is now an established working relationship between Sinn Fein and the police in West Belfast? Perhaps they are working together, in an inter-agency forum of some sort, to tackle anti-social behaviour and the other crimes which are endemic in the area.
But I will have to assume that this isn’t the case from Mr Maskey’s swipes in the Press. And what do you expect in return? Cap-doffing from High Orde?
I am no great fan of the police either. But if Mr Maskey finds it unacceptable to have HIS record of representation questioned, then he’s in the wrong business, bless his little cotton socks. The same petulant behaviour was in evidence in the north west this week from Sinn Fein regarding the District Policing Partnership - well, boys, you’re in there getting your money like all the rest of them.
Time for corporate responsibility, as opposed to griping and sniping.
Posted by on Apr 04, 2008 @ 06:04 PMQuick question: What could the police have done to prevent any of the last three murders in West Belfast?
Posted by on Apr 05, 2008 @ 07:34 AMGood question Gonzo - and the answer will be a long time coming
Posted by on Apr 06, 2008 @ 12:12 AM“Quick question: What could the police have done to prevent any of the last three murders in West Belfast? “
They’re a political police agency.
What they can do and what they can’t do is nu-labor proscribed. There is an whole raft of issues they’re not allowed to touch.
(that goes to culture)
They won’t have a riot to help a pensioner who is being harassed, they’ll just watch from the fringe, riots mean the peace process is failing. So if it has stones or petrol bombs in it, the PSNI are off in the other direction.
Immigration, can’t do that either. Child protection, they’ve a one percent interest, in relation to public safety they often have to keep their mouths firmly shut.
Look at those ( vice & red light) meetings we had at Belfast City Hall, we ( politicians, residents, NIO official) had to tell the police it was ok to arrest people for x, y or z. SF didn’t turn up by the way, they listened from a corridor.
The killers felt empowered, the PSNI could have done something to eliminate that confidence.
Did they deserve to be walking about at the time? It is the Ian Huntley argument.
Why wasn’t he *already* in jail?
G.
Posted by on Apr 06, 2008 @ 11:45 AMStill a good question. Still no answers despite the unfocused rant above.
Posted by on Apr 06, 2008 @ 07:26 PMA bit of CCTV wouldn’t have hurt.
G.
Posted by on Apr 07, 2008 @ 12:35 AM
