Tuesday, July 24, 2007
Putting the lunatics back in the asylum
There was a delightful article in the Sunday Times Culture supplement a couple of weeks ago. I’m sorry I cannot link to it, but it described Rostrevor and the annual Fiddler’s Green Festival in pastoral and most attractive terms. A village Joyce is said to have called ‘tip top’, and a festival called the ‘hidden gem in Ireland’s festival circuit’. But all is not what it seems.
Just past midnight, I walked my dog through the village, and was met by a youth with his penis in his hand, intimidating 2 young women. He threatened me and them, and proceeded to urinate over all of us as he walked away. It appears that the police had been called to the village at 8pm, but had been stoned and attacked by a group of 30 youths. Later last night, 2 men were attacked on their way home from Brian Kennedy’s concert and were left on the side of the road with serious head injuries. I first learned of this on my way to Belfast this morning when I saw the SOCOs on the road doing a finger tip search.
When the police called for back up last night, they were told that no TSG units were available for Rostrevor. So the village was left in the grip of a drunken rampage, with no protection at all. Street drinking, public disorder and general mayhem was what was left.
There is no excuse for 2 sets of rules. If we look to place order and control on Unionist parades and celebrations, we should do the same for all events where there is a likelihood for public disorder. I found it shocking and shaking that when you let the genie out of the bottle, you are left with feral youths who can control, intimidate and attack without any fear of being stopped.
The doctor and solicitor who were attacked are now said to be in much better condition and out of danger. 4 men and a woman are under arrest.
But having created this vaccum of law and order, is this what we are left with? Fear of being out of our houses?
Drunken disorderly behaviour is not the curse of any one community. It is the curse of us all. A concerted and coordinated effort is required now to make sure we do not let the lunatics continue to run the asylum, and we must take our towns, villages and streets back to ourselves, no matter where we live.
Miss Fitz @ 07:37 PM
Dogs worked quite well when some enthusiastic unionists attempted to invade Stormont a while back. Could be a bit unfair on the beasts though.
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 08:19 PMI’m always impressed by where Norn Ironers can find whataboutery, and truly this is whataboutery on an epic scale. This is fantastic. A drunken-disorderly incident somewhere is related to the policing of Orange marches, obviously! Genius.
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 08:29 PMBen
I am not sure this is whataboutery as such. To me its more about accepting the real problems we face as communities. We have made bogey men of so many things, but the reality is that there are problems of an epic scale facing us now that need to be dealt with.Attempted murder, indecent assualt and public disorder transcend ‘drunken disorderly’.
The point I am trying to make is that keeping the police out of districts for so long has resulted in lawlessnes that is now threatening to devour us
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 08:33 PMAnd the point I’m making is that dragging Unionist parades into this discussion is classic Norn Iron whataboutery. What you had to say could have stood perfectly well on its own merit, but, no, you had to bring in some sectarian baggage and posturing to muddy the water and slander people by the sordid implication that those who don’t like Unionist parades on their street accept and condone this sort of behaviour. You just can’t let it alone, you can’t discuss any issue, any incident, without invoking the usual tired tribalism. So, well done, another petty what-about point scored at the expense of what should have been the substantive issue. You just can’t let it alone.
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 08:44 PMBen
You miss my point entirely, and I am sorry about that. I am simply making the point that whatever standards we impose or seek to impose for one section ought to hold for all.In short, we need to accept and realise that there are societal problems that have been subsumed to tribalism. In the end, if we do not tackle them in a united fashion we are all lost
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 08:52 PMBen
Miss Fitz is a very fair minded contributor and I think you have completely misinterpreted what she said. As IQ test points out, she was saying that OO parades are actually scrutinised so much that we often hold them to a higher standard than other events. She has posted her thoughts on OO parades from a broad nationalist perspective in the past and (speaking from a unionist perspective) I thought she was admirably fair and constructive.
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 09:13 PMI thought it was a bit pompous and tendentious, and yes, it did smack a bit of whataboutery. Was there any need for the OO reference to make the point stand?
I don’t see any..
Totally agree that drunken thugs are the curse of this land btw.
I’m just back from Italy where you can have a drink anywhere within reason, and a bit miffed to be denied the right to have a cold one in botanic gardens on a sunny afternoon. Apparently nobody’s allowed because it’s the only way to stop the 24 Carlsberg brigade.
Am I the only one who thinks that’s idiotic?
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 09:19 PMExcellent posting from all but Ben.
It is another example of just how much work there is to do in order to make northern ireland a normal society. Of course, there are pockets of lawlessness in most societies, but the fact that a large festival like this was not properly policed is obviously a major failure.Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 09:33 PMsnakebrain,
I agree about the embarrassing differences between us and more civilised continental cultures, but the reference to the OO was an encouragement to nationalists (of which I am one) to see the log in their own eyes, rather than the mote in someone else’s. Not an attack on the OO, quite the opposite.Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 09:38 PMMiss Fitz,
The police couldn’t come to Rostrevor, they having been worn out by the tough business of trapping otherwise law-abiding citizens breaking the speed limit on the motorways and dual carriageways—often by 5mph or more!
I know. I was one of them :0(
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 10:01 PMDawkins
Dont even start me on that subject.I was almost arrested a couple of weeks ago on a motoring offence. When I sought some advice from a contact in Garnerville as to why such an extreme reaction was warranted, I was informed I had failed the new PSNI ‘attitude’ test.
When I was pulled over, the officer asked me about 10 times ‘how can I teach you the lesson’. I finally told him to hurry the f*** up as I needed to go somewhere, whereupon I found my hands on the roof of my car.
I was disgusted beyond words to be told that the PSNI ‘refused’ to send TSG to Rostrevor last night to aid colleagues, and ordered them to pull out. What a nonsense, and why is no one complaining
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 10:06 PMMissFitz
I do believe there’s a shiny big building not too far from St Anne’s Cathedral where you can do just that.
Posted by on Jul 24, 2007 @ 10:42 PMAnyone actually in Rostrevor for the festival?
A cross-community one I might add.
Rostrevor is home to the three main Christian denominations on the island, and a central part of the festival is what goes on at the Christian renewal centre on the Shore Road.
It’s there that loyalists, republicans et al are invited to sip tea and make friends. It always goes swimingly.
I fail to comprehend how PSNI TSGs would have in anyway prevented the yobbo urinating in the street or the attack on the two men in the early hours of the morning.
As for reports of 30 youths attacking the PSNI, please provide links.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 08:03 AMObserver
The report of the youths attacking police is mine. I was given that information directly by the PSNI. I am not aware of any one picking up on it, but that might change. As to the presence of police stopping the attacks or the on-going public disorder, we will never know will we?For too long areas such as this were a no-go area for police. My fear is that we are now paying the price for abrogating legitimate law and order.
As to the Music of Healing event, it is still an outstanding occasion, as are all of the other properly held festival events.
The difficulty Rostrevor is facing is much the same as faced Ballyshannon and other festivals who were challenged by this kind of dunken and crazed behaviour.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 08:24 AMRostrevor—a ‘no go area’ for the PSNI?
A place where the people are ‘abrogating legitimate law and order’.
Really?
This is the first I’ve heard of it.
Rostrevor, for the most part, is a fairly sleepy place. The local youths—like in every other small village in the country—enjoy a jar and cause their fair share of annoyance.
The attack on the two men was outrageous, but a extremely rare event all the same.
In my experience, most people there have no problem in picking up the phone and calling the PSNI when it’s warranted.
To portray this predominantly middle-class, middle-of-the-road hamlet as some sort of republican outpost verges on the ridiculous.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 08:38 AMObserver
I am not sure if you are just playing Devils Advocate here.I am sure your comments about Rostrevor are a great comfort to the families of the 2 RUC men mudrered in the village in 1983. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch83.htm
And those nice flags that fly in the village around Easter are just for decoration?
Rostrevor is home to some of the wealthiest people in Northern Ireland, and certainly has an abundance of middle class well heeled people. But it is also a strong Republican area, and it is nonsense to say otherwise.
While there is much more acceptance of the PSNI here now, they would not have come out here 15 years ago without extreme measures of support being taken.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 09:01 AMDeeply misleading.
So, the shooting dead of two RUC men in 1983—allegedly by IRA members from south Armagh—somehow means Rostrevor was the cockpit of the struggle against British imperialism?
Not likely.
I’d be interested in other statistics proving Rostrevor’s nasty, subversive streak.
As for the ‘nice flags’ you refer to at Easter time—yes most of the people who live there regard themselves as Irish (however unappealing that might be to you) and this is reflected in a smattering of flags throughout the village during that time of year.
Celebrations are held on one day a year—not drawn out for months on end.
The notion that Rostrevor is somehow staunchly republican and therefore, according to your prejudice—lawless—is highly misleading.
If anything, Rostrevor is a model of good relations where crime is remarkably low.
If only that could be said for other small towns and hamlets further up the south Down coast.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 09:22 AMI have to say Miss Fizz that the issue of the trouble in Rostrevor would have stood on its own without any mention of other problems with the OO.
Here in England we have the same trouble every weekend on the streets of all the cities as I am sure you do in Belfast and all other towns and we do not need to make references to the Poll Tax riots or Toxteth riots.
The issue is basically about the abuse of alcohol and youth with perhaps too much disposable income.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 09:26 AMOverhere
I have made the point that this is a wider societal issue. However, it did strike me the other evening that we spend a lot of time making comment and indeed censuring unionist celebrations of culture for street drinking. It is a very contentious issue, and raised its head most prominently this year.My question is: why should it be different in nationalist areas? Is it because we are not offending ‘the other side’? If that is the case, do we then accept it is OK to offend members of the community of our own persuasion?
You see I dont accept that. I believe that there should be one law, equally applied to all without exception. If its OK to drink on the streets at a nationalsit outing, no matter where it takes place, it should be okay to drink on the streets at bonfires and parades.
While the issue of the trouble would indeed have stood on its own, I was making a much wider and more political point.
Observer:
I have been trying to think of way to answer your question in a fair and objective manner. Can you name the councillors in Rostrevor, and tell me the last time there was an Alliance or SDLP councillor here? Answer is, we have an SF councillor and an Independent.
I am really unsure what you mean by ‘nasty subversive’ streaks. Is that an implication that republicanism is nasty and subversive? Oh dear.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 10:11 AM“For too long areas such as this were a no-go area for police. My fear is that we are now paying the price for abrogating legitimate law and order.”
So pay the price-- no sensible policeman is going to get him/herself hurt in these situations.
In a similar incident on the north coast when I remonstrated with a policeman for similar inaction the response was simple.
“I am not going to get hurt for anyone particularly a bunch of drunks”Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 10:13 AMMiss Fitz,
Mick Murphy and Anthony Williamson—the two councillors you refer to are representative of the village.
Surely, Sinn Fein would have 2 councillors in the village were it a republican stronghold? Mr Williamson has never had any truck with the republican movement.
The lack of a SDLP councillor has as much to do with the shambles the local party is in as much as anything else.
My reference to a ‘nasty subversive streak’ was intended to be sarcastic. You seem to be suggesting that republicans or nationalists are inherently lawless.
Crotlieve—the electoral ward that takes in Rostrevor and the surrounding area has 3 SDLP councillors, by the way.
You have cackhandedly tried to portray a civilised little village—that happens to be *gulp* nationalist—as some sort of bandit country.
I’m afraid your political prejudices are leading you down a cul de sac here.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 10:35 AMWhat a bunch of pontificators. Miss Fitz - I think your point stands. If there is likely to be disorder and public drunkenness, the police should be present. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, so it’s quite fair to mention unionist festivals as well.
As for the point about street drinking being banned, unfortunately, the attitude by many to drinking here makes it necessary. Yes, it’s idiotic. Have a look at Botanic after a sunny day and it’s littered with carrier bags and empty tins. Lovely.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 10:46 AMMiss Fitz
As usual your rose coloured glasses for the unionist community have couloured your visionFor years your lot has been banging away about only the police should be the police so the IRA after accomplishing much of its agenda has retired to their cups and left policing to the police. Now it turns out that they are unable or unwilling to do the actual policing so you want to blame the failure of the PSNI on the IRA? How very ummm DUP of you
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 11:33 AMI’ve looked at this thread a few times now, trying to figure out what I make of it. I’ve come to the conclusion that, while nobody pretends the consequences of problem drinking are pleasant, the need to link this to calls to cut down on OO drinking is tenuous at best, and sectarian at worst.
What I think MF is indulging in here is a little touch of righteous condemnation of some unpleasant behaviour, with a little political twist attached.
It’s a simple enough device. If you disagree with my condemnation of problem drinkers in Rostrevor, you are obviously wrong. Then, since I’ve linked this to opposition to OO and Twelth day drinking, if you don’t take the same strident tone of condemnation and adopt all the same conclusions as me, you are obviously biased against the OO.
Totally ignoring the difference in context and situation.
When Twelth day celebrations are criticised for large-scale drunkenness, we are talking about thousands, if not tens of thousands of individuals simultaeneously indulging in a massive orgy of WKD-fuelled drunkenness, with associated massive clean-up costs and unpleasantness for all those who don’t feel they can safely venture out their doors for several days.
Here we have Rostrevor, population perhaps 2500 (I’m guessing), with a mob of thirty (perhaps) drunken thugs indulging themselves. Maybe there is an issue with why policing isn’t as effective as it should be. In my experience, policing in rural areas tends to be cack anyway.
Of course this event should have been policed. Of course drunken violence should not be tolerated. But it’s not the same thing as criticising the failure of social leaders to take action against public drunkenness on a massive scale. To pretend it is invites the accusation of whataboutery and veiled sectarianism that I feel obliged to make.
I’m sure I’ll be accused of the same things now, but, to paraphrase a certain Southern gentleman, “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.”
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 12:34 PMAgain Miss Fizz was the event in Rostrevor a Republican/Nationalist event or was it simply a festival with no political overtones. If you are saying because it was in Rostrevor it must be a Nationalist/Republican event then you would have to conclude that hypothetically a Bonny Baby contest in the Shankill was a loyalist/Unionist only event or that the Nottinghill Carnival was caribean(excuse spelling)/Coloured only event.
If anything this is tribalism at its worse
Again the problem is to do with alcohol and the “chav element” we have in all societies not sure what the Irish version of “chav” would be though.
Posted by on Jul 25, 2007 @ 12:56 PM
