Friday, September 05, 2008
Policing and Justice: DUP vs TUV
The latest part of the war of words saga between the DUP and TUV has been over policing an justice and specifically the power which Martin McGuinness as deputy first minister might have over judicial appointments. Jim Allister launched a Policing and Justice document which attacked the DUP over the possibility that if P&J were devolved, even to the likes of Alliance, then the OFMDFM would still have control over the appointment of judges and the Attorney General. In reply the Nigel Dodds has countered “the DUP has made it absolutely clear that there can be no question of powers over judicial appointments being devolved to any Department including OFMDFM where there would be a Sinn Fein role.” In reply to that Allister has welcomed what he says is a change in DUP policy.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of who said what before or after whom: it does now look as if the DUP is set to oppose the possibility of OFMDFM having any involvement in judicial appointments. It is unclear what SF will make of this and whether or not that will add to the problem which the policing and justice issue already represents.
Turgon @ 10:26 PM
What did the IRA need guns for these wing nuts roam around shooting each other in the foot
Posted by on Sep 05, 2008 @ 11:00 PMPresumably this issue has been agreed/fudged with SF already - otherwise if it was a late change in DUP policy as suggested by Jimbo then SF would tell the DUP to feck off.
Interesting DUP Spin from Dodders.
“In fact, the current position of Direct Rule which Jim favours, would in all probability, be subject to greater Southern control as Dublin has a direct line into the Northern Ireland Office. Once again this flawed argument put forward by Jim demonstrates that he is clutching at straws.”Posted by on Sep 05, 2008 @ 11:09 PMIt’s solved surely.
Posted by on Sep 05, 2008 @ 11:19 PMPerhaps someone could help Mr Allister to spell Jeffrey
Posted by on Sep 05, 2008 @ 11:27 PMI think you’re correct on that Dewi.
There will be sequencing and associated theatre, but the DUP & SF need this to work.Posted by on Sep 05, 2008 @ 11:29 PMTurgon delude yourself no longer...Sinn Fein will have direct influence over judcial appointments within the next two years.
Unionism is quite dense, intelligent guys who can never see the wood from the ...4000 year old trees, go figure.
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 12:54 AMThe Shinkickers will have a say in these appointments I predict (beware though, I thought Armagh would beat Wexford). Jim ‘the grin’ Allister whilst never willing to admit it, would no doubt like the clock turned back a few decades, aint gonna happen and the DUP who realise this are making the best fist of sharing power with their foe as best they can, while raising the odd red flag to present some sort of verility to those Dupppers who are thinking of heading in the direction of ‘the grin’, this last sentence was too long wasn’t it?
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 01:04 AMNot long enough RS :)
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 02:06 AMThere’s a lot of hot air and bluster here but can someone please to explain to me what role OFMDFM could possibly have in this process?
Under European Law isnt it a requirment that Judicial Appointments be independent of Government to prevent bias?
And in NI aren’t such appointments made by the Lord Chancellor on the recommendation of the indepenedent Judicial Appointments Commission?
So what role is envisiaged for the Shinners? Or anyone else for that matter?
Never mind the facts I suppose. Let’s just have a sectarian squabble?
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 06:34 AMOn the face of it, Nigel Dodd’s statement is puzzling. A role for FMDFM has been in existence since the Criminal Justice Review of 2000.
The Justice NI Act 2004 does make a change. Earlier, the Prime Minister was in effect to make appointments of the NI Lord Chief Justice and Lord Justice of Appeal, based on the recommendations of FMDFM on the advice of the independent Judicial Appointments Commission. They key role in the process is played by the Commission. The 2004 act changes this as follows:“The First and Deputy First Minister, after consultation with the Lord Chief Justice (or the most senior Lord Justice of Appeal if the office of the Lord Chief Justice is vacant or the Lord Chief Justice is unavailable), will make a
recommendation to the Prime Minister (new section 12(4)). The Prime Minister MUST CONSIDER THAT RECOMMENDATION before making his recommendation to Her Majesty.The Commission will still provide advice to the First and Deputy First Ministers on
the procedure to adopt for formulating a recommendation to the Prime Minister.”Some see this as a weakening of the role of FMDFM,
but either way, the DFM has a statutory role combined with the FM. The only way Nigel Dodds’ comment appears to fit is that he said that” there was no question of POWERS over judicial appointments being devolved to any Department including OFMDFM where there would be a Sinn Fein role.”Strictly speaking, FMDFM doesn’t have POWERS here, they make RECOMMENDATIONS. But it’s a very fine line and there’s no question that Martin McGuinness play that role in law.
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 07:16 AMYes, buts it’s to make recommendations and those must be made in line with the Oath of Office and must take account of the evidence from the NIJAC and its only for the LCJ and Court of Appeal. And its transparent as there is a formal graded selection process before it gets anywehre near OFMDFM.
So there are no powers, just recommendations so a British Minister or Chancellor can make the appopintment.
Who would trust any of them with anything else?
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 07:23 AMcynic raises a very interesting point.
The role of FMDFM is clearly defined in what powers they possess.
If there is any doubt lets hear from DUP/SF as to what they think is their responsibility.
No one politician should make such an appointment. Cross party/community support is required.Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 09:31 AMcynic raises a very interesting point.
The role of FMDFM is clearly defined in what powers they possess.
If there is any doubt lets hear from DUP/SF as to what they think is their responsibility.
No one politician should make such an appointment. Cross party/community support is required.Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 09:31 AMI agree complete scaremongering from Jim Allister. He would be better attacking SF for trying to bring NIinto dispute once again rather than attacking fellow unionists who are preventing them from fulfilling their republican agenda. In an attempt to garnish support Jim Allister has resorted to attacking the DUPon policies they do not even have. This is petty scaremongering and bitter sniping at it’s most base and no one will be fuelled by a one man band with his ego trip and personal vendetta.
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 09:38 AMAllister seemed pretty happy with the assurances given by Dodds on the radio yesterday. I am allowed to mention the word sanctimonious, guess who it is I am reffering to.
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 09:50 AM“as Dublin has a direct line into the Northern Ireland Office”
Brian, can you describe for us how this mechanism works? How are Dublin officials involved in policy and ‘sensitive’ day-to-day policing and other justice decisions?
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 10:03 AMEoghan, it seems that Jim is less than happy with Peter’s paramilitary endeavours. Was Nigel privy to this rendezvous?
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 10:14 AMNev
I originally thought you were referring to Peter the Punt’s original paramilitary adventures, or indeed of some of his colleagues flirtations.
Just another day of hypocrisy.
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 11:13 AMIsn’t it called the Anglo Irish Secretariat, set up under the hated Anglo Irish Agreement? Then there are the regular cross-border meetings at Official and Ministerial levels and the various conferences.
And of course they also have those wonderful new inventions called the telephone and email.
But even NI Ministers are not involved in day to day policing decisions or the operation of the Courts because, unlike Irleand, we have constitutional protections to prevent Ministerial interference. Those matters are for the Chief Constable who is accountable to the Policing Board and the Lord Chief Justice.
And on a practical level the mechanism seems to operate like this. If SF or the SDLP don’t get their own way or cannot win an argument, they first try the NIO Minister. Then if that doesnt work, they run to Nanny in Dublin and complain to the Irish Government who phone the NIO to complain on their behalf. Simple really.
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 11:35 AMcynic etc. Subject to comment from a named expert, Judicial appointments are made by the independent judicial appointments commission, chaired by the Lord Chief Justice as in England and Wales. This largely removes these appointments from the political sphere.Under devolution of P&J;, FMDFM have as duty to ensure that JAC appointments, and appointments the JAC make,are representative of the whole community so far as is practicable. The FMDFM role provides a measure of local political accountability without disturbing the independence of the commission. The Prime Minister signs off the LCJ and Appeal court appointments after “considering” the FMDFM recommendations and not “based on” them. I guess - and its only a guess - that the change was made to cover the eventuality of deadlock in recommending an appointment,, or doing a shoddy deal. I also guess that the chair of the JAC may inform the PM of the commission’s choice directly and not through FMDFM. It would be interesting to know that. But make no mistake, the DFM has a role.
Nevin, the short answer is I believe the mechanisms are intergovernmental ie. between minister and civil servants DFA or Justice to NIO and Gardai to PSNI on operational matters, according to the terms of the GFA under which the Irish government is a co- guarantor, rather than set out specifically in law or treaty.
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 11:42 AMTurgon
When Jim (and others spilt) the IRA structures were raised as the core concern of IRA genuiness. More recently he has raised the appointment of judges. If both issues are satisfactorily resolved in the negotiations and implementation what is the purpose of TUV?
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 12:22 PMThanks Brian Walker, a level headed (non partisan - see “cynic") explaination of the situation.
I do however believe that any judicial recommendations made by OFMDFM are very unlikely to be overlooked by other folks in the selection process. That is the way these things work, OFMDFM do their homework, make a recommendation and that is pretty much it done - everyone else is just happy that they agreed on something and signs off on it.
If they cannot agree then the language does allow an appointment to be selected without them, but at that point expect SF to rattle the cage of Dublin to help “guide” the appointment. London will not ignore Dublin as they value their co-operation and want to keep them onside as a working partner on the thorny issue of the North. Nothwithstanding DUP’s influence in the British Parliament.
As I have been saying all along to my unionist friends, P+J is a deal breaker for SF. I have been disheartned by the lack of insight by most Unionist posters on this issue. I really think the Unionists base (many unionist MLA’s and most councillors) are not up to speed with London, Dublin, Washington etc. Robinson is going to have to make a deal and it is going to be against everything most unionist posters have said. I think Robinson is already aware of how this will go, and he will be helped in getting it through his base by the governments etc, but it will still be hard and Jim Allister will benefit politically.
SF will be keeping an eye on the TUV too as they are keenly aware that is a card to be played to their strategic advantage - they will deploy this asset to their greatest advantage either by forcing an election or when one comes in due course. When they play the card the result they are looking for will be a SF First Minister.
A lot of the Unionist base really are blind to all of this and may be shocked at how quickly it can happen it they do not start playing the game by the rules laid down in the GFA / Belfast Agreement.
Robinson is “snookered” but will be allowed to move the white ball as long as he plays the shot he is told to play.Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 12:33 PMPlus it seems SF are isolated on mandatory coalition
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 12:50 PMI would also expect the Irish language enthusiasts to be left empty handed for another year or so to help Peter get this through. Provides him with a victory (of sorts) to give his base.
The ILA however may eventually be the issue over which SF bring the TUV into play.
Watch this space, and as always “Have a nice day”.Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 12:56 PMIt is rather sad to see but the DUP have not agreed to a thing on P&J;yet it is the same stance that Jim Allaister agreed to when he was in the party what is he going on about!
Posted by on Sep 06, 2008 @ 01:43 PM
