Sunday, October 12, 2008
Parking the tanks onto the opponents lawn
Fair Deal has spent some time arguing that moves on issues such as the Irish Language should wait until Nationalism has something to trade.
I disagree with this for a number of reasons, not least that I’m not sure that endless horsetrading and mistrust will run a government in the long run (though the TBGBs seemed to manage it for a while…..) but the one that strikes me most is that it is an attitude that comes purely from the sectarian silo. Why exactly should the Irish Language, for example, be abandoned as one for “t’other”? Even if an ILA is blocked for now, it’s likely that eventually there will be an issue that gives the necessary leverage, and something will be done.
The Irish language has a number of very fervent supporters, but I guess that most Nationalists fall into a similar camp as me: a rudimentary grasp at best and no small affection for the language and a vague desire to see it promoted. With Unionism set dead against it, and the fervent supporters pushing SF, policy in the area is largely dictated by the more extreme end.
Now, suppose the DUP introduced an Irish Language Act into the Assembly. It would blindside both SF and the SDLP for a start. It would also mean that the DUP could set the agenda, shape the initial parameters for discussion and the scope of the debate. If it’s clever, it could maybe come up with proposals that would split more moderate Nationalism from the fervent supporters, and create something more to its taste. It might also have spent more time considering how Nationalism thinks, and maybe that would be helpful too.
Obviously I don’t give a stuff about Unionism does. But the principle still applies for Nationalism. Too many issues are abandoned as simply alien and dealt with by the other side. We need to break those boxes, and start pursuing policy outside of our sectional comfort zone. Pretty soon, cultural issues around Polish-Irish, African-Irish, Chinese-Irish will begin to loom larger as Ireland becomes more multicultural. If we can’t deal with Unionism, can we deal with that? Traditional nationalism is an important and strong component of the Irish identity, but it is not the only one. Only by trying to deal with all these issues do we come close to true Republicanism.
Kensei @ 01:17 PM
“Even if an ILA is blocked for now, it’s likely that eventually there will be an issue that gives the necessary leverage, and something will be done.”
Ten, twenty, thirty years. It doesnt matter how long it takes.
Irish needs to break out of the Ghetto, to do that we need to get through the barriers surrounding it.
The Acht is not optional and the idea has united Irish speakers like no issue ever has, marches are grat social events and the community is stronger as a result of every single one.
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 01:28 PMthere is more need for a chinese or polish language act than an “irish” one. FFS its not even a native language, the real irish, yes those south of the border, speak english for crying out loud!
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 02:28 PMI think we can safely ignore the contribution from the last poster who signs himself as “??”. A man that unsure of himself needs not be accounted.
That leaves us however with the thread itself and that presents a difficulty as we cannot make head nor tail of what Kensei is proposing. On the one hand he seems to think that it would be a good idea for the DUP to introduce an Irish language Act but the reasons he suggests for so doing is that it might help to divide nationalism but also, in some sneaky kind of way,help them to appreciate how nationalism thinks (which would help no end in understanding even better how to further undermine nationalism no doubt).
But, hold! He was only joking. He doesn’t really think the DUP will introduce such a bill (even with the tantalising bonus Kensei dangles in front of it of undermining nationalism). No instead he wants nationalism to abandon its struggle for the Irish language to enjoy in Northern Ireland similar encouragement as does Welsh in Wales and Gaelic in Scotland.
Not that hope is to be abandoned entirely. If nationalists encourage minorty languages such as Polish and Chinese (what, Mandarin, Cantonese, any other, none?) who knows, we might sneak Irish past their noses sometime in the future.
I suppose it will be easy to obtain DUP support for aiding assistance to Polish, Chinese and other cultures - we just have to convince them that it will undermine these people politically.
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 02:56 PM“there is more need for a chinese or polish language act than an “irish” one. FFS its not even a native language, the real irish, yes those south of the border, speak english for crying out loud!”
Why are people so culturally ignorant?
Politics dictate so, I suppose!
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 03:59 PMfor the Irish language to enjoy in Northern Ireland similar encouragement as does Welsh in Wales and Gaelic in Scotland....
Irish is the native language of Northern Ireland, English is.
It must be hard being Oirish
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 04:20 PMIt is a serious question--What have nationalists to trade to get ILA.
All politics is about compromise.
The question has never been asked because nationalists would not consider it.
Let us face reality. The every day language in Ireland North and south is English.
Surely that must be the only official language in both jurisdictions.
Irish along with other languages such as Polish and Chinese is a minority language and they all deserve support to prosper and be used on a daily basis. Remove this idea of “official “ status and it will flourish.
The Irish Government will give a very clear signal to Unionists that a UI can treat them as equals if Irish lost its official status.
At the present time what chance has a loyalist from the Shankill getting a job in Garda Siochana or place at Teacher Training centre.
Is it a case of all Protestants/Unionists becoming Irish and to embrace a culture / language which is alien to them.Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 04:21 PM“Irish is the native language of Northern Ireland, English is.”
That’s right, Irish is the native language of Northern Ireland, as well as English, of course!
But you yourself don’t really have a good grasp of the English language however!
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 04:26 PMTo paraphrase Alan Jay Lerner (as sung by Rex Harrison), “Why can’t the British teach their children how to speak?”.
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 04:37 PM“It is a serious question--What have nationalists to trade to get ILA.”
-FFS, It’s the native and ancient cultural language of the island and these islands. Imagine if similar ancient languages like Sanskrit, Aramaic etc… being treated the same by the culturally ignorant and thick!“The Irish Government will give a very clear signal to Unionists that a UI can treat them as equals if Irish lost its official status.”
- Jeepers, the language must be so offensive to Unionists.“At the present time what chance has a loyalist from the Shankill getting a job in Garda Siochana or place at Teacher Training centre.”
- A loyalist would never apply in the first! The requirement to speak Irish to be a Garda is not the case anymore!“Is it a case of all Protestants/Unionists becoming Irish and to embrace a culture / language which is alien to them.”
- Well who in Ireland really cares about this any more, given the constant intransigence and indifference of the staunch British Unionist citizens in NI, their loyalties will always be with England!Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 04:40 PMGiven that many people under 20 struggle with basic English, shouldn’t that be a priority. The shift into ‘Textspeak’ is gathering pace. The British Government already subsidises Irish speaking schools, and at GCSE and A level, it can be taught to whoever wishes. If local councils vote to have signs in Irish, that’s fine, the ratepayers vote for them. Isn’t this a non issue for 90% of people in NI?
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 04:46 PMKensei,
Not trying to be unhelpful but I did float exactly this idea in April.Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 04:59 PMGreagoir
Do you think the British government should introduce Olde Medieval English,ie Chaucer etc in England? Or even better,signs in Latin, since it was once the historical language in these islands.
Whatever happened to Manx? Do the inhabitants of the IOM give a shit? Making people in West Belfast fill in their DLA forms in Irish is pointless and stupid.Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 05:04 PM“Do you think the British government should introduce Olde Medieval English,ie Chaucer etc in England? Or even better,signs in Latin, since it was once the historical language in these islands.”
Why, do they still speak Olde Medieval English or Latin in parts of Britain today, like they speak Irish in parts of NI and Ulster?
Irish Nationists request that the Irish language is merely officially recognised in NI. Unionist see it as a threst like everthing else to their very ‘BRITISH’ way of life and all the rest...Ah sure, the vestiges of anything Irish is so offensive to Unionists! Yer NI team played in all green last night too, FFS!
Anyway, who really cares what the lot of ye’s think!
Your loyalties will always be with Engerland!Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 05:17 PMGiven that many people under 20 struggle with basic English, shouldn’t that be a priority.
Like our friend, ??, Driftwood!
According to independent academic research, those who opt for immersion Irish language education have a better chance of being fluent - and articulate - in both Irish and English and, no doubt, text speak.
Contrary to the opinion of flat earthers, learning Irish or any language doesn’t leave less memory space in the brain for acquiring ‘useful’ languages such as continental languages.
As for waiting for unionists to make up their mind what they want to trade for meaningful legislation to promote and protect Irish in this part of Ireland/UK, that’s a nonrunner. Ignoring the rights of a minority is what painted unionists - the political leadership of unionists - into their particular corner in the first place.
I think what Kensei is saying has a point if what it means is that unionism recognises Irish as a language of the UK and therefore treat it here as Scots Gaelic is treated in Scotland or Welsh in Wales. Instead what unionism has been about, particularly the DUP, is that the Irish identity, much less the Irish language, has no place in NI or the UK. The point was driven home by Gregory Campbell’s snide remarks about Tyrone triumphing in an international competition. And almost every time the DUP opens its mouth to talk about the language, it’s to insult the language and those who speak it. Is that how they think their fellow citizens should be treated - if so they have no place in the government of any civilised society.
I’m no friend of SF in this regard - in my opinion that party has done little that is effective to promote the language and its overall contribution to Irish may in fact be a negative value…Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 05:25 PMIs there a Scots Language act? I don’t remember seeing too many signs in Gaelic on my last trips to Glasgow and Edinburgh. I cannot recall Alex Salmond ever speaking it, although please feel free to call me on that one.
I’m not sure what a British identity consists of, or even an Irish one. I’m sure you would get a wide variety of opinion on both scores. This is an Anglo American culture. We all have a tendency to speak US-English, as Bill Gates would have it.Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 05:34 PMSinn Féin are much more likely to get an Irish language act under direct rule.The dups have shown that they are incapable of inacting anything that can be construed as giving an inch.With the dups its “not an inch” or we may be stuck in the quicksand of history but heh we like it here and as we are all tied together nobody else is going to make any headway either.
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 06:29 PMIgnoring the rights of a minority is what painted unionists - the political leadership of unionists - into their particular corner in the first place.......
the rights of a minoirty.. LOL why should they have the right to have irish signposts and have government bodies converse with them in Irish? THey SPEAK ENGLISH as a first language.
Now real minorities, such as the chinese, polish etc, they deserve our help as not all speak english as a first language.
God help us, irish speakers now a minority FFS!
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 06:47 PMRory. I can only apologise if the point of this thread is obscured by my crapness. I imagine that unfortunate characteristic will continue into the future. You should see what my current in progress effort is like at the minute.
The Irish language was really tangential to the point I was trying to make. Whole areas of policy are abandoned to “the other side” either by lack of interest or reflexive opposition. It is a bipartisan failure. I could have used another example, but the ILA is easy to do. Perhaps that was a mistake, as the thread is immediately derailed to the same old argumens.
You also misunderstand me: I don’t propose that the DUP “do” anything. I simply used a hypothetical example to show how they might gain some advantage from more creative policy.
But if they did, perhaps then Nationalism might get an ILA more like what it really wants at this point in time. The policy is effectively driven by people who have a really passionate belief in the language. I respect their passion, and I have some sympathy with their stance. But if presented with the choice of translating every document at huge cost the average activist is likely to say yes. The less involved may pause to consider the financial repercussions in difficult times. Funny, no?
Turgon
It wasn’t the ILA example per se I wanted to get across, more the need to break out of our boxes. Apparently I failed miserably. Ho hum, back to the drawing board.
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 06:52 PMJust for the record Kensei, I have never advocated translating every document into Irish. I thought a good approach would be to translate the top ten most demanded documents in English - that’s across the board, just 10 documents - per year. What I want from an Irish Language Act is support for the language in broadcasting, education and the courts.
As for ??, what’s your point? The Irish language community in NI is a minority and it’s being treated shabbily by the DUP who it seems have taken it into their redneck brains that, as well as targeting homosexuals, they should also try to further marginalise Irish speakers in their own country. It’s also laughable to suggest as you do that Polish and Chinese should have more rights than Irish speakers - I’m in favour of appropriate documents being translated for them of course -but to suggest the speakers of a foreign language should have more rights than those who speak an indigenous language is contrary to logic.
As for your assertion that because Irish speakers can speak English they shouldn’t be accommodated in Irish, that’s a bit like Iris Robinson thinking homosexuals can be ‘cured’. Irish is part of our identity - it’s not an optional extra. It’s pure ignorance to suggest otherwise.
Unionists would be better off if they were more accommodating on this issue rather than clinging to the political wreckage of their old certainties, a ploy which has led them down a cul de sac to date.
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 08:07 PMThere will be an ILA.
The terms are to be discussed and rights clearly stated.
The first provision is to establish English as the sole Official language for NI.
There can always be parity of esteem and respect for Irish but there can not be any parity of sovereignty as that is a contradiction.
It is not a case of one language being superior to another but it is simply an acceptance of reality.
Irish can be supported in education but not in the courts where the official language takes precedence.
This can only be set aside if someone can prove they can not speak English.Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 08:34 PMUlsterfan,
Is Wales being effectively bilingual a threat to soveriegnty, or are you talking nonsense to suggest that Irish is a threat to sovereignty?
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 09:09 PMGaribaldy.
I hope I am not talking nonsense and have thought a lot about this subject.
Irish will be a tool used by SF for political reasons and a means to weaken British sovereignty by trying to create a state within a state by controlling education, having Irish speaking gaeltachts and allocating social housing to native speakers.
In other words they will have access to tens of millions of pounds to fund jobs and will use the language as an economic tool to get an advantage over working class loyalists and to perpetuate the apartheid which already exists in our societyPosted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 09:38 PMUlsterfan,
I see. There was a recent book by a guy called Kevin Bean arguing that the Provos had already created an effective state within a state within places like west Belfast, but that all it did was to make them vulnerable to threats from the British Exchequer to pull the plug, and to tie them ever more closely into the current (British constitutional) arrangements.
Unfortuntely NI has gotten along quite nicely as an apartheid society for decades, and the Irish language will not seriously change that one way or the other.
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 09:45 PMWhat weakens British sovereignty within NI is the inability of unionists, such as UlsterFan, to acknowledge that the demand for an Irish language act, protection for the Irish language within a ‘British’ context, comes from Irish speakers, represented by the 2.000+ who took to the streets in Belfast yesterday, and is little if anything to do with its use by SF as a political tool. If Unionists, proud and all as they are to be British, can’t afford the same protection to Irish speakers in their part of Britain as the English speaking majorities in Scotland accord the Gaelic speakers there and the English majority of Wales extend to Welsh speakers, then they, the British unionists, are effectively diluting Britishness in NI.
Perhaps that’s the SF game plan - after all SF really only have a nodding acquaintance with Irish as Gerry Adams readily demonstrates when he speaks the language - that they are going to sucker unionists to render meaningless the inclusive and pluralistic nature of true Britishness as it’s understood in Britain.
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 10:35 PMWhy, do they still speak Olde Medieval English or Latin in parts of Britain today, like they speak Irish in parts of NI and Ulster? .........
LOL not natively, SF robots abound on these boards
It’s also laughable to suggest as you do that Polish and Chinese should have more rights than Irish speakers - .....
Why not, some of the people dont speak english and they speak their languages natively. IRISH is not the native language of NI. No One speaks it natively, they only do so because its a political weapon
Posted by on Oct 12, 2008 @ 10:39 PM
