Saturday, June 02, 2007
Paisley Jr to promote ‘harm’ in society…
DESPITE believing that gay people harm society, Junior Minister Paisley Junior’s department is still giving the gay community £180,000. No doubt Rev Ivan Foster - who appears to have removed his article calling on another DUP minister to resign if he intends “using public funds to promote and celebrate that which he has opposed in the past and which is an abomination before God” - and the Free Ps will be more than a little perplexed that instead of saving Ulster from Sodomy, those ‘repulsed’ by it are obliged to strengthen the gay community.
Meanwhile, Paisley gave the News Letter an exclusive interview (sadly not online), in which he defended himself by saying that “the opinions were given in a personal capacity in an interview arranged before he took up his role as a junior minister in the Executive”.
Despite attempting to portray this as a debate on freedom of speech (which it isn’t), the interview did not address the ‘harm’ that homosexuality does to gay people and society.
In yesterday’s Irish News Fergal Hallahan pondered:
“Are Scissor Sisters harmful? Rufus Wainwright? American novelist Henry James? The brilliant Irish writer Colm Toibin? Is Joan Armatrading harmful?
...
To say that a person or group of people repulses you when they have done you no injury and when there is no evidence they have injured anyone else is particularly ugly. It says more about the insecurities of the person doing the judging than about those they judge.
But for a public figure – a government minister, no less – to publicly say such a thing, to announce that they are “pretty repulsed” by homosexuals, is beyond the bounds of acceptability.”
Perhaps elaborating on homophobic views is more difficult once the ministerial code comes into effect. But the Belfast Telegraph still wants to know the DUP’s position on gay rights:
“Mr Paisley is in a unique position, as assistant to his father in the Office of First Minister and Deputy First Minister. The office has a responsibility for promoting and monitoring equality of opportunity, but how committed to defending homosexuals can he be, if he is repulsed by their lifestyle and thinks it is wrong?
…
As an influential junior minister, Mr Paisley has left himself open to doubt about his impartiality when dealing with issues of homophobia. Gays, like migrants, are frequently the target of physical and psychological attacks, which should be condemned by everyone, without exception.
The fact that the First Minister, Ian Paisley, led a campaign to “save Ulster from sodomy”, which failed to prevent British and European law on homosexuality being introduced, suggests that the DUP and its supporters may still be reluctant upholders of gay rights. The party and its leader have a duty, in 2007, to say where they stand now, or the views of Ian Paisley, jr, may be seen as representative.
It would be a great pity if the credibility of the devolved government were to suffer, in any way, from a split over attitudes to homosexuality. A debate on the issue could be healthy, if lessons were to be learned, but otherwise the voters simply want the executive members to get on with their real jobs, keeping their personal opinions to themselves.”
Belfast Gonzo @ 12:34 PM
Gonzo
You mentioned on the other thread that you now thought that the “gentleman” (my inverted commas) might not have been in breach of the Ministerial Code since the interview was given before he took office.
I have pointed out on that thread that he didn’t say that the interview was before he took office but that it was “arranged” before he took office.
The fact that he tried to obfuscate might indicate that he, himself, is worried that he did, indeed, breach the code.Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 03:30 PMHarry Flashman
‘Actually radical atheists like Richard Dawkins have precisely the same attitude, they have no hatred of religious people per se, it’s just that they are repulsed by religion and religious practices, often they openly sneer and ridicule religious people’s beliefs and way of life.’
That’s a totally different kettle of fish. Religion is not something innate to you from birth, it’s a social contrust you acquire. You can no more change your sexuality than you can your skin, eye or hair colour. Prejudice based on the latter is fundamentally different from prejudice based on social values acquired through life.
IPJ and his ilk believe people choose to be gay therefore they can be ‘cured’. I really do hope one of his kids turns out to be gay, that would be the icing on the cake.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 03:32 PMjoe
You continue to make an excellent point. Maybe some enterprising reporter could ask Hot Press when the interview actually took place, as opposed to when it was merely ‘arranged’?
If it was after May 8, get the knives out.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 03:49 PMThere’s also the fact that some of the people who are most publicly rabidly anti-gay are themselves totally fascinated by it and are secretly….....
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 03:51 PMIt’s a real pickle isn’t it - what with the fact that on one side of the ‘house’ we have Sinn Fein who’s political philosophy previously violated Human Rights legislation; then on the other ethnic side, we have the DUP who have an historic legacy of trying to violate Equality Rights for minorities.
So ministerial codes and pledges can easily be fractured on both sides leaving an assumption that neither are credible and fundamentally flawed in today’s changed political landscape driven forward by EU members.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 03:58 PMTrawling the net for more on this, I found Peter Hain’s interview with PinkNews recently:
However, in an interview with PinkNews.co.uk last week the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Peter Hain, assured gay people in the province that the presence of homophobic DUP members in the government would not lead to the removal of gay rights.
“Because of cross-community voting you couldn’t make a change to unravel or repeal the legislation I introduced on goods and services,” he said.
“I think there is a great respect for the law among members of the DUP, whether they approve of it or not, and I don’t think you will find there is any attempt to unravel it.
“And if there were, in the way that the devolved government acted administratively or in terms of resources, it will be challengeable in the courts, and the courts would find against the government so that means its not going to happen.
“The gay community can feel quite comfortable in that.”
Hmmm… an assurance from Hain is like the kiss of death, but if Poots’ argument that it’s pointless fighting gay equality holds true, then Paisley Jr is guilty of more posturing than you’re likely to see in the Kremlin on a Saturday night.
Given that the DUP minister probably will be handing out hundreds of thousands of pounds to gay groups, I think the Free P reaction will be interesting to watch.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 04:11 PMIndeed DC. I think we have some interesting times ahead.
Still, it’s a lot better than shooting or secretly conspiring.
I’m an optimist and belive there are much better times ahead (in an historical perspective, decades ahead).Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 04:12 PMYes Joe, but will we get to the mountain top?
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 04:29 PMThe first thing that occurred to me when I read Paisley Jr’s comments was he has practically guaranteed increased funding for the LGBT community. He has handed them great ammunition in any future court case involving a cut in their funding.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 04:29 PMHarry Flashman, your assumption is based on that alone - subjectivity. You might as well say that paedophiles and thiefs cannot be changed so there is no point in in imprisoning them as they are genetically predetermined to do this.
TB does not like the fact that there are hundreds of testimonies ie primary evidence by people who place their names and lives on the internet who have changed from a life of sodomite perversion to normal heterosexual living. He hides behind some report of some longhaired dope smoking hippies aka Psychiatrists who cite statistics from unnamed clients.
No man is born an atheist as no man is born a queer. They are acquired by their will to turn away from the natural order to the point that they have deluded themselves into believing this is now rational and logical.
Stop pretending you all believ in equality. Most here don’t want Intelligent Design to be taught in classes, orangemen have the right to walk the Gravaghy Road and the equal right to say that sodomy is a perversion as SF want to say it is not.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 04:29 PMSam
How would you react to a gay pride parade down your street?
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 05:54 PMt paedophiles and thiefs cannot be changed so there is no point in in imprisoning them as they are genetically predetermined to do this.
Bzzzt. Paedophilia and stealing are cultural memes not genetic.
No man is born an atheist as no man is born a queer.
Bzzzt. Religion is another culturally acquired meme. No man is born a believer it is acquired from the culture. There is plenty of published peer reviewed evidence for genetic and epigenetic roles in determining sexual orientation. There is also supporting neuro-anatomical evidence for such a determination.
However, there is a scintilla of truth to the propaganda Mr. Hanna is pushing. Just as there are repressed homosexuals living a heterosexual life there are some homosexuals who are not homosexual by epi/genetic determination. I have personally known two lesbians and one homosexual who became so as a result of traumatic sexual abuse as minors. This does not, as Mr. Hanna claims, prove that sexual orientation is a lifestyle choice for all gay or lesbian individuals.
intelligent design
Mr. Hanna, I’m sure you can provide me with a explanation of the distribution of the elements in the universe and on this planet that doesn’t rely on “well god did it”. Can explain why the fossil record and DNA sequences yield almost identical evolutionary lineages? Or why the genomes of mitochondria and chloroplasts cluster with the prokaryotes and not the eukaryotes? Given the strengths of your views I look forward with interest to your rebuttal of Carl Woese’s work.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 05:55 PMorangemen have the right to walk the Gravaghy Road
This has never been an issue but this
has.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 06:14 PMhave we heard from Paul Berry on this one?
Ms Wiz
‘I really do hope one of his kids turns out to be gay, that would be the icing on the cake. ‘
C’mon. Gay, Straight, Bi, whatever, describe acts, not people. In any case, can we not settle for the possibility that Baby Docs kids will dismiss and refute his intolerance.
Their sexual preferences and practices will be just that; theirs. Do you really expect others to put icing on your cake? If you do, you are just the other side of Baby Docs tarnished coin.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 06:40 PMRobert Keogh
Thank you for admitting that sodomy is not congenital - please share your findings with the pink fascists on here.
I fail to understand how your throwing together some scientific facts proves evolution. A quick read at Behe’s book delineates that we don’t have the mechanisms uncovered for a single one of these biochemical evolutionary pathways that your view is predicated on. For instance there are so many of them that are inextricably linked to a point where they are irreducibly complex.
The reason so many have similar structures and genetic makeup is because they have a common Creator. However, the diversity is something you need to address. Why are humans so different from all other species. why do we have a grammar, worship, develop learning, writing, argue about where we come from, seek to dominate the earth whereas the other species are happy to simply repeat the lifetstyles of their ancestors for the last 6,000 years?
The DNA records do not match up with the fossil records. Even Stephen Gould (no Creationist) admitted that.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 06:50 PMThe funding for the LGBT community is fairly new - at least to the tune of £180,000.
It is true that I certainly wouldn’t want intelligent design to be taught, as it is scientifically spurious.
Every “man” is born an atheist - people aren’t born with religious views any more than are born with bigoted attitudes. Sam Hanna, have you ever been around a baby? They are born hungry and scared: in need of warmth, comfort and food. A baby’s sexual orientation is latent, but it’s not merely a set of personal attitudes, like prejudices. My attitudes towards gays have changed over the years, as have my attitudes towards many other things (Danish films, affirmative action, coffee with milk, existentialism). But my eye colour hasn’t changed, nor has my sexual orientation.
Because people feel strongly about faith, they assume it’s inherent. But it is a choice. The reason re-programming of gays doesn’t work is because it isn’t a choice who we are sexually attracted to, and anyone who has had a crush on someone inappropriate knows that! We are animals! Obviously how we act on that is a different story, but our sexual orientation is in our nature, so it cannot be simultaneously against nature.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 07:03 PMSam Hanna,
Thank you for admitting that sodomy is not congenital - please share your findings with the pink fascists on here.
I did not say that. In fact I said quite the opposite.
Even Stephen Gould (no Creationist) admitted that.
In the same manner I “admitted” that “sodomy” is not congenital?
Lineages derived from DNA and those derived by the fossil record match as well as can be expected given the manner in which fossils are created. This is not explained by ID, instead is dismissed in the intellectually flawed manner you just did.Explain the intelligence in the design of the appendix, the intelligence in the design of the knee, the intelligence in the coccyx. If there was design it certainly wasn’t intelligent and it had a rotten quality assurance process.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 07:27 PManiumus,
you are, of course, correct, just remember that you are arguing with orthodoxy by assertion. Examine how Sam Hanna took my post and transmuted it into support for his dogma. Engagements of this sort remind me of the story of Brer Rabbit and the tar baby.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 07:32 PMGreat thread, the old one. I just swung by again and see that its offspring is going to run and run too. A bit like Joseph’s in fact.
But this has to be the most quotable bit of the last thread:
“Christ is the descendant of Joseph legally, as in Jewish law they were married before His birth but only of Mary physically so He could avoid the sin pollution of the Adamic nature and the curse of Jechoniah’s prophecy.”
W00t! But that’s not all. It’s followed by:
“As I said, your problem is your ignorance not with the Bible.”
And this guy doesn’t think HE has a problem :0)
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 08:17 PMGod’s Word is clear that homosexuality is an abomination to the the Lord.
The DUP have entered into an executive with unrependant terrorists who have no time for God’s Word or Laws and will use every opportunity to embarass them
Unfortunately the evil will ultimately destroy anything that was good and thereis more than one rotten apple in the Executive
Joshua 24:14-15 “Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 08:20 PMRobert Keogh
I did not say the human body had optimal design but that is has evidence of design.Theology explains via the fall of mankind why our bodies have less than optimal design. BTW, the so-called vestigal theory is rapidly diminishing as we discover more and more functions for things like the appendix.
If you and your rabid atheists friends had a minimal of logic you could work out that if the most complex computer in the world (which is the sixe of two basketball courts) has to be designed and all it does is take in, process, store and give out information then the most complex piece of equipment that does this computer functions also has to be designed and it is only the size of a small football ie your brain. I would have thought even the stupidest person on this forum could have worked that one out.
However, to prove I am right why don’t you head down to your local doctor’s tomorrow and ask for a new eye, ear or tongue. After all, according to you chance made it by an unguided process so it should be simple for intelligent designers like yourselves who believe it is a simple structure.
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 09:05 PMThis is hilarious. Anyone else suspect that Sam Hanna is a troll? I mean, he ticks every fundamentalist box and throws in a couple more I never thought could be introduced into this “debate”.
Did he place the status of halfway women between the dog and the rat or did I just imagine he did?
I don’t believe that even the most backward of evangelical backwoodsmen could trot out the sort of stuff he has. Next he’ll be telling us about the seven-foot-tall lizards who secretly rule the planet. Or am I confusing different wacky superstitions here?
Anyhoo, go Sam!
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 10:05 PMOops, that should have read “the status of women halfway…”
I met a couple of “halfway women” in Bangkok once, but that’s another story :0)
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 10:20 PMMy problem with all of this as gerry would say is…..what if Junior, elected by the people, actually IS repulsed by homosexuality?
Is he not allowed to say so?
What if he’s asked..“Are you repulsed by homosexuality?”
Should he lie? Should he refuse to comment?
What do his detractors recommend?
Posted by on Jun 02, 2007 @ 11:09 PMBelfast Gomzo
You seem a little preoccupied with Baby Doc and Homosexuality.
Could it be that while indulging in a walk on the wild side that you have Ian jnr on your mind.
Posted by on Jun 03, 2007 @ 12:58 AM
