Thursday, November 01, 2007
Orange hall razed in Republic…
YET another Orange hall has been burnt out in Ulster, this time on the other side of the border. It’s the third to be destroyed out of 10 in County Cavan over the last 20 years.
Belfast Gonzo @ 10:40 AM
Dawkins
Do you really think we are so stupid on here?
The subtext, in fact virtually the overt point you make, is that the Salvation Army, for example, doesn’t have it’s halls burned because it doesn’t make a nuisance of itself.
Ergo, if the OO didn’t make a nuisance of itself it’s halls wouldn’t be burned.
Are you saying to the OO, then, stop making a nuisance of yourself or the halls will continue to be burned?
Why don’t you just condemn the attacks without equivocation like the rest of us?
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 07:25 PMThese attacks on Orange halls especially in isolated mainly nationalist communities seem to be increasingly common.
It is unclear how much organisation is involved but clearly there is some organisation in that one does require flammable liquid etc. and probably at least a couple of people. Whether it is part of a grand conspiracy is unclear but it is probably part of a small criminal conspiracy anyway.
It is interesting that most of these attacks are in isolated rural areas. In these areas the Orange Order is extremely rarely involved in anything controvertial. One point that might be relevant is that orangism has been having a mini revival in the border counties of the RoI and this may annoy some people.
I would add my welcome to comments like those of Billy pilgrim and Dev.
In answer to quizmaster I am not an orangeman so cannot comment in detail other than to suggest that you seem to have an extremely detailed knowledge of an organisation which you denounce as secret. Where has this knowledge been gained from? Are you a disgruntled orangeman or have you read web sites and books produced by disgruntled orangemen? Neither of these possibilities seem to make your position entirely independent or unbiased.
In terms of a couple of your points;-
3). Surely for Christian orangemen to be in a prayer meeting with the unsaved is not necessarily a bad idea. Do you think church prayer meetings should be for Christians only?5). For a lodge member to devote time to secondary things. Well I am a fundamentalist Christian. I also devote time to my hobbies which include posting here, reading, running, mountaineering and such like. Are these wrong?
If Christian Orangemen feel that being an Orangeman is compatable with being a Christian who are you or me to tell them otherwise?
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 07:28 PMSean can you cite the problem, specifically?
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 07:32 PMWhy the increase this year?
Would seem obvious to me, the complete lack of control in these previously tightly controlled areas
Notwithstanding the recent events in S.Armagh, rural Ulster hasn’t quite descended to the Gotham City levels you describe yet- very little robbing pensioners or stabbing kids for sweets in the countryside where a lot of these attacks are taking place.
Orange Halls probably are pretty easy targets, but then so would a host of other places and they seem to be escaping the attention.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 07:36 PMCavan, to my knowledge, was never under IRA control nor subject to any of other changes in security arrangements we’ve seen over the peace process era.
Not to mention that 7 out of 10 looks like serious targeting.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 07:42 PMWould seem obvious to me
Lots of things seem obvious to you from 4,000 miles that aren’t obvious to those of us who live here.
Congratulations on your penetrating insight!
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 08:30 PMPage 2 post 3
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 08:40 PMSean, don’t waste my time. If you insist on talking about things you clearly know nothing about, you are going to get a bit of a ‘cuff’ every now and then.
I’m not saying there was not an ad hominem in there, but… give us all a break and research some of this stuff before you write…
then, at least, you stand a better chance of winning the argument rather than serially opening yourself to ridicule.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:04 PMWhat makes you think crime is any less a problem in rural areas then it is in a city? In Canada infact, and I believe it is translatable world wide even to your world, criminal acts per Capita are higher in rural areas then they are in Urban centres. Why? Who knows, it could be a simple statistical variation, could be rural people are more likely to report crime, could be rural people are more criminal.
Second most of these arsons are so inept and abortive that if it is being organized then they have a piss poor organization and should have been exposed long ago. They are obviously first attempts, and hopefully last, of stupid little twerps out for a cheap thrill. By the way by stupid little twerps I am not necesarily referencing their age more their mentality
Third Why an orange hall, simple expiediency, orange halls in rural areas are largely unguarded and unwatched. Where would you sugest these idiots start? Their neighbours barn? but that affects people they know, family friends. But the orange hall like this one has but 12 members and from where? To burn down an orange hall in these small remote and generally catholic areas would be the least dangerous and least likely to affect them personally. Its simple expiediency. Criminals in my expierience are generally lazy cowards and I see little to disuade me from this opinion in these crimes
I am sure its comforting to you to think their is some vast criminal conspiracy against the oo but in my opinion this is bollix. There is however a low level resentment to them in the nationalist communities even in Cavan and that lets little twerps feel comfortable attacking their halls. I am not saying it is right because I dont think it is but it is however a realistic point of view.
And I believe the only reason it is increasing now is that there is no one to make them toe the line anymore. It is the cops job but they are ill equipped to deal with the fall out of devolution and the disarmament of the IRA.
Besides has anyone even determined if this is arson? It could as easily be an electrical fire. Like any time it involves suspicion of the nationalist community the unionists are quick to jump to conclusions on facts that are not in evidence
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:10 PMThe Penguin,
I’m sorry but you’re being tedious. I’d have thought my condemnation was obvious, but if not:
I, Dawkins, condemn all attacks on Orange halls.
Now, back to the reason the halls are being attacked: the nuisance the Orange Order has made of itself over the years.
The Sally Anny was founded as a society espousing Christian principles including Love thy Neighbour. The OO was founded for reasons of blind hatred towards its neighbours, hence its proscription for a number of years.
This is why Sally Anny halls will never be burnt, and OO halls will continue to be targeted.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:13 PMMick
I can more than withstand a cuff but every time I cuff them back you red card me. Fairness is all I askAs for the research so you agree HarryFlashman that the orange strip in the Irish flag is a celebration of the oo? Or was that just a wind up that I returned in favour, that you cautioned me for?
Am I allowed to cuff Cromwell back? he seems to get away with an inordinate amount of these
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:16 PMDawkins
Okay, clear at last.
You believe there is ample reason for the OO halls to be attacked, and you believe they will continue to be attacked.More like justification than explanation to me.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:26 PMThe Penguin,
Sorry, mate, I’ve done my best. Your inferences are your affair not mine.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:28 PMSean, here’s the original. Please read what it actually says rather than what you think it says:
“Sean and Seán:
“You are both perfectly entitled to take up whatever position on this matter that you wish: so long as it is ‘playing the ball’.
“But can we have some (real, as opposed to ‘made up’) evidence for your ‘twin’ assertions that the OO should be banned?”
Make a case. Ask a question. Answer a question. Argue black is white. Just try to engage with: one, what you know (simple research can fill in the rest); and two, what others actually say.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:29 PMSean
What makes you think crime is any less a problem in rural areas then it is in a city?
In Northern Ireland, for a variety of reasons, “anti-social” crime is more prevalent in the urban than rural setting.
Second most of these arsons are so inept and abortive that if it is being organized then they have a piss poor organization and should have been exposed long ago.</em<Yet, with even with this piss-poor organisation, only one perpetrator has been, perhaps, maybe, Peace Process permitting, caught never mind brought to justice
<em>Third Why an orange hall, simple expiediency, orange halls in rural areas are largely unguarded and unwatched.
So are the shops, surgeries, schools...basically everything in a rural village is unguarded at night.
I am sure its comforting to you to think their is some vast criminal conspiracy against the oo but in my opinion this is bollix.
If there is a conspiracy (and I have has much evidence of that as apparently the PSNI do) then it isn’t a criminal one, it’s far more sinister than that.
There is however a low level resentment to them in the nationalist communities even in Cavan and that lets little twerps feel comfortable attacking their halls.
It’s why they feel that “comfort factor” which makes it even more sinister
And I believe the only reason it is increasing now is that there is no one to make them toe the line anymore.
And you think the local IRA would have been really that bothered about it before?
It is the cops job but they are ill equipped to deal with the fall out of devolution and the disarmament of the IRA.
Cops can’t be everywhere, to a large extent they need the help of the local community to weed out the undesireables.
Besides has anyone even determined if this is arson? It could as easily be an electrical fire.
Catch a grip, Sean, that’s so weak I don’t even need to put up a counter-argument, I’ll just let it stand on its own.
Like any time it involves suspicion of the nationalist community the unionists are quick to jump to conclusions on facts that are not in evidence
The facts are that this year, which in most other respects has been a quiet one re inter-community tension, an inordinately number of orange halls in rural areas where protestants form an isolated minority have been attacked.
That’s all we know.Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:37 PMYou really need to check your facts , Sean.
From a US study which refers to other countries including Canada.:Before continuing, we should examine the latest evidence about urban crime. Although most often assumed to be the case, an important question is whether crime levels are higher in urban versus rural areas. According to crime statistics, community size does make a difference, as crime rates are higher in urban than in rural areas. Violent and property crime rates in our largest cities (Metropolitan Statistical Areas, or MSAs) are three to four times as high as the rates in rural communities (Barkan). These statistics hold for nearly all types of crime. For example, according to 1995 statistics from the Uniform Crime Reports, in U.S. metropolitan areas, homicide claims 11 victims per 100,000 inhabitants and more than 25 per 100,000 in some of the largest cities. In small cities and in rural counties, homicide claims only 5 victims per 100,000, and fewer than 2 per 100,000 in our most rural states (Federal Bureau of Investigation). This pattern also occurs for robbery and assault; they are much more common in large urban areas than elsewhere. Like violent crime, property crime is lowest in rural areas (Barkan). Further, this urban-rural difference has been found in Canada, England, Australia, and the Netherlands (Shover). These statistics present criminologists with the challenge of explaining why crime levels are much higher in urban than rural areas.
Three to four times higher in every category in the cities.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:46 PMDawkins has explained exactly why it is being done and has said it will continue - perhaps he could speculate for us on who he thinks is doing it.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:48 PM“With the oo’s history its repugnant that anybody should think that the oo should be included or celebrated in anyway other than for its demise
The oo should be a proscribed organisation just as it was in much of its early history” - Sean
The OO (even to those of us who smirk when we hear the word ‘culture’ used to describe the charade of men wearing bowler hats, adorned in a sash, marching up and down a road, banging cacophonously on a Lambeg drum to the great annoyance of their neighbours ) should be respected by Catholics simply because it is deemed important to a great number of protestants, not all of whom can be fairly described as bigots or as anything other than decent people.
The keyword is respect. The OO isn’t respected by Catholics. The reason why it isn’t respected by Catholics are well documented, despite the best attempts of others to ignore them, and have little to do with misunderstanding by Catholics about the nature of the OO or with intolerance of a different tradition.
As it stands, the OO isn’t a respectable organisation. In order to become a respectable organisation and thereby receive the respect that is due to those protestants who see it as an integral part of their tradition (okay, we can use the word ‘culture’ sans smirk) it needs to address the issues that make it unrespectable:
a. It needs to expel all members who are members of proscribed organisations or who have criminal convictions related to sectarian offences.
b. It needs to apologise for its close links to Loyalist murder gangs.
c. It need to fully recognise and engage with the Parade’s Commission.
d. It needs to relax its rules about expelling members who attend catholic services, such as the wedding of a catholic friend.
f. It needs to introduce a very strong Code of Conduct for its members aimed at promoting the ‘civil society’ that Mr Fealty mentioned, and it needs to enforce that code.
There are lots of smaller things the order could do, such as apologise to the family of the police officer, Greg Taylor, who was beaten to death by an Orange Order mob during a protest in Dunloy, for the statement by the then grand master of the Orange Order, Martin Smyth, excusing his brutal murder as “men on the ground receiving consequences of a wrong decision by a senior police officer”.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:49 PMno need to worry about them bein burnt as sinn fein wil prob put up the cash to rebuild them.its a shame at the same
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 09:51 PMOneil
Besides has anyone even determined if this is arson? It could as easily be an electrical fire.
Catch a grip, Sean, that’s so weak I don’t even need to put up a counter-argument, I’ll just let it stand on its own.
Like any time it involves suspicion of the nationalist community the unionists are quick to jump to conclusions on facts that are not in evidence
Thanks for poving my arguement for me. You just automatically assumed it is arson and whodunnit, just like I said you would
And I believe the only reason it is increasing now is that there is no one to make them toe the line anymore.
And you think the local IRA would have been really that bothered about it before?
How many of these halls were attacked when the IRA could operate in these areas with impunity? If they burnt down so many of them before then how could there be an increase? Catch yourself on!
What makes you think crime is any less a problem in rural areas then it is in a city?
In Northern Ireland, for a variety of reasons, “anti-social” crime is more prevalent in the urban than rural setting.
I didn’t realize arson was an anti-social crime I thought it was a crime full stop
<em>Third Why an orange hall, simple expiediency, orange halls in rural areas are largely unguarded and unwatched.
So are the shops, surgeries, schools...basically everything in a rural village is unguarded at night
true but if you burn down the local off sale where are you going to get your buckfast from. If you burn down the local Chemist where are you going to buy your paracetamol for your hang over? Burning down an orange hall has no effect on these peoples lives… providing they do not get caught. Again I am not in any way endorsing or excusing this behaviour just trying to see the whole picture.It’s why they feel that “comfort factor” which makes it even more sinister
Why do people feel comfortable placing the names of dead children on 11th night bonfires? Because they are not of “their” community, its wrong and possibly evil but it seems to be practiced on both sides of the divide
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 10:07 PMSean
If it turns out that an electrical fire was the culprit, I promise, I’ll hold my hands up and come back here and admit I was wrong.Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 10:23 PMWow - I agree with The Dubliner for once. The OO is not respectable.
But that doesn’t mean their property should not be respected. God I hope it is a targeted operation. That means:
1. Nationalist areas actually have as lower moron quotient than is suggested by this
2. You have hope of catching them and stopping them.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 10:37 PM“But the orange hall like this one has but 12 members and from where? To burn down an orange hall in these small remote and generally catholic areas would be the least dangerous and least likely to affect them personally.”
Why???
Surely if the meaning of Irish Republicanism meant anything to those who call themselves Irish Republicans then burning down an Orange hall in a remote part of the Republic like Cootehill where Orangemen are in a small minority would be almost the worst thing you could do against republicanism, and against the local community?
Burning down an Orange hall in County Cavan shouldnt be seen as “the least dangerous and least likely to affect them personally.” but rather as an insult to the whole of the community - especially those true republicans who value the meaning of the orange in the Irish tricolour.
Especially when Cavan is one of fairly few counties in the Republic where the orange tradition remains strong - by burning down orange halls they may as well burn the Orange colour out of the tricolour completely.
I’m glad that some republicans have come on here and condemned this, but I’m very worried at those who have come on here to excuse this act, or perform in what-aboutery, or excuse them as but common scoundrels when this is obviously part of a concerted campaign against isolated Protestant communities north and south.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 10:56 PMDev
“Personally I don’t think I’ll ever like the OO as an institution but that doesn’t mean I have to characterise all orangemen as scum. If I want to highlight the aspects of orangism I find hurtful or offensive I’d do a lot better by not calling people names, generally an audience is more receptive to your views if you don’t call them a shower of c**ts at the outset”.
I agree with a lot of your comments.
Like many Catholics, I certainly don’t like the OO links with “loyalist” terrorism and find the “leadership” hypocritical due to their constant failure to take any action about this.
However, I also know quite a few OO members (and I’m sure that there are many many more) who are equally unhappy about this and wonder why the “leadership” simply tolerates it.
Rather than taint everyone in the OO, or antagonise them by resorting to generalised abusive language, it is much better to ask specific questions about the contentious behaviour and/or highlight the blatent hypocrisy of the “leadership”.
I am not anti 00, I would love to see the 12th become an “Orangefest” as has been suggested. I am sure that an awful lot of members would agree.
I think that the OO “leadership” should continue to be pressed about the OO links with “loyalist” terrorism and their complete inaction. Hopefully, this will force their hand to either take action or step down in favour of new “leadership” who will do something.
However, this is not the same as making general abusive, comments accusing all OO members of supporting these actions.
In my experience this is not true as well as being counter productive and just plain wrong.
Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 10:58 PMHow many people excoriating the OO here actually know any orangemen.
When I worked in N.I. the majority of my co-workers were protestants (nominally). Although I was and am non-religious, I was looked upon by some as a catholic.
Quite a few of my co-workers were orangemen. I never found them to be anything other than decent people and they treated me with respect.
I played golf with them, had drinks with them, was entertained in some of their homes and entertained them in mine.
Sure there are some bad apples there but there are everywhere.
Some of those who are quick to condemn them for sectarianism or bigotry could perhaps benefit from a bit of self-examination.Posted by on Nov 01, 2007 @ 11:04 PM
