Thursday, November 01, 2007
Orange hall razed in Republic…
YET another Orange hall has been burnt out in Ulster, this time on the other side of the border. It’s the third to be destroyed out of 10 in County Cavan over the last 20 years.
Belfast Gonzo @ 10:40 AM
Outsider,
Excellent. I hope you have some clout within the OO as you seem to indicate.
I don’t wish to do a “I thought of it first” among the
KlansmenOrangemen, but I really do feel my suggestion of an OO/Sally Anny partnership would really work out.So all I’ll say is: keep that flag flying.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 01:16 AMYou live in London, you may have watched a terrific Orange parade this year in the capital with huge numbers both watching and on parade so I do not think all English people view the OO in an negative light and isnt there a massive OO parade in Southport each year?
People come out to watch a traffic crash as well
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 01:26 AM“But that’s always the way of it, isn’t it? It’s like the BNP and weak-minded tagalong thuggery in England. Just a small minority, but that’s all it takes; then of course it’s “...nothing to do with us, guv...””
Of course, the comparison between the BNP and SF is, well we’ll be charitable here, spurious, considering SF is undoubtedly a left wing part and for example, fairly friendly to immigrants or gay people excetera.
Their language, Ogra excepted, is normally fairly inclusive and several of their representatives have already condemned the attacks. I certainly think both Nationalist parties could do more. the issue isn’t really confronting the attacks but the implications of what is driving it.
But no, nothing like you suggest.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 01:33 AM*As for the research so you agree HarryFlashman that the orange strip in the Irish flag is a celebration of the oo? Or was that just a wind up that I returned in favour, that you cautioned me for?*
I’m not winding you up Sean, are you colour blind? The colour chosen by Republicans to represent what they wish to see united with them is, let me spell it out for you, O-R-A-N-G-E.
Now let me make it clear for you what the colour orange represents in Irish political and social history. It is not some form of generalised colour that represents nice Irish protestants like Hilda Sweetnam in her nice little home in Dalkey, it does not represent the radical non-conformist republican Presbyterians who caused the established British order such problems in the thirteen colonies and in Down and Antrim in 1798.
The colour orange in Irish politics represents one thing and one thing only - Orangeism (surprisingly), the preservation of the protestant monarchy and ascendancy in Ireland, in short the Orange Order, clear enough for you?
Republicans could have chosen another colour, say Saint Patrick’s blue (the official colour of Ireland on the president’s coat of arms by the way), as representing Irish protestantism, or red to represent Ulster (OK that would have caused problems with the Italians) or purple to represent the royalism of so many protestants. They didn’t they chose ORANGE.
If they weren’t aware what that colour meant then they shouldn’t have stuck it on their flag, if they now realise what Orangeism really is and don’t like it and want it banned fine, but at least have the decency to take the Order’s colour of their banner, afer all they had it first.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 02:23 AMNotwithstanding my misgivings about the OO I think this attack should be condemned and the culprits, if caught, consigned for a long time to the slammer.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 02:57 AM“Some of those who are quick to condemn them for sectarianism or bigotry could perhaps benefit from a bit of self-examination.”
The Orange Order is sectarian. I can’t see how it’s up for debate, the goals and requirements of the organization lay it out clearly. Of course, most religious organisations are. Whether people load the term sectarian with implied incitement of hatred or violence is another matter and another argument.
The arsonists deserve the full weight of the law, as all criminals do. It can’t be that hard to weed out who did it, assuming they’re local.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 03:46 AMHow can the orange hall be burnt out “in Ulster” if it’s on the other side of the border? Surely that would be making it the ROI ?
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 04:59 AM“How can the orange hall be burnt out “in Ulster” if it’s on the other side of the border? Surely that would be making it the ROI?”
Holy mother of Charles Darwin, Diarmuid, I hope you’re joking.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 05:10 AM“Here are some important questions that all Christian Orangemen would do well too honestly answer.”
Deep breath. OK , here goes
“1. Why do you need to be a member of a SECRET religious organization?”
It isn’t a secret organisation. It isn’t a religious organisation, but an organisation ofr the religious- like a church bowling club it has a distinct function
“2. Is your church not protesting against the errors of Rome and the host of other errors to make it a sufficient voice for you?” The standards are fine- the church’s enforcement of them isn’t always, so no need to change church, just be better members
“3. Would a monthly Church prayer meeting surrounded by believers not be more suitable for fellowship than a monthly lodge meeting surrounded by ungodly men?”
A lodge meeting includes a monthly prayer meeting, and the proportion of Godly men is probably as high as in a church“4. If a march is something that one dearly cherishes, would a Christian march with Gospel texts, terminating in an Evangelistic Service, not be more effective and beneficial in turning our unsaved Protestant and Catholic neighbours to Christ?”
Precisely what happens on Black Saturday, and still apparently causes offence. All parades- not marches- terminate with an evangelical service to which a tiny percentage of the spectators and participants go. Sad, but life“5. Would you agree, the saved Lodge member is devoting time, effort and money into things which are at best secondary and at worse futile and unbiblical? Does not membership of these secret bodies severely hamper our efforts to reach those who are perceived by many to be our enemy community.”
No. the Salvation Army was originally violently opposed by the unsaved, and the same accusations were made. Time gave the true perspective.“6. Many ex-lodge members have admitted their strong anti-Roman Catholic feelings to the point they could not love their neighbour and rarely witnessed to them. After resignation their attitudes radically changed. Do you need such a change of heart?”
No. And the key is “ex-Lodge members”.Why join if you don’t know what you’re getting in to- and why leave if you have consistency of principle?“7. Many lodge members find it hard to miss a lodge meeting yet they readily find it easy to miss the church prayer meeting. Does it not show which God is on the throne?”
If true, what’s your point? God will judge“8. Since we all now know of the horrible mockery committed in the Independent Loyal Orange Institution, the Royal Arch Purple Chapter and Royal Black Institution initiation ceremonies, should not the true child of God want to forsake them, and loudly protest against them?”
Well you can be an orangeman without being in any of these organisations, so address your complaints to them
“9. Does it not make you uncomfortable that you are involved in rituals and symbolism which other anti-evangelical organizations also make use of like the Masons, Mormons, Knights of Malta, and even the Ancient Order of Hibernians?”
No more than I’m uncomfortable with the pagan symbol of the Christmas tree in some churches- or the multiplicity of other symbols Christianity adopts from paganism - because they don’t affect my personal relationship with God
“10. How can you justify being unequally yoked with unbelievers in a RELIGIOUS brotherhood that also requires you to call a fellow member ‘brother’ irrespective of whether that man is a child of God or a child of the devil?”
Because it’s not for me to judge whether a man is a child of God- if he professes such and isn’t, he brings judgement on himself
“11. How can you condemn Catholicism for addressing their priests as “Father”, and not condemn the Orders use of the religious titles of ‘Worshipful Master’, ‘Grand Master’ and ‘Most Worshipful Sovereign Grand Master?’ Surely the context of the use of both titles is in a religious sense, something the Lord was forbidding to be done?”
No more than calling a judge “your worship”. You misunderstand titular definition.
“12. How can you biblically justify subjecting yourself to the religious authority of countless Chaplains, Lecturers and “Worshipful Masters” (at Lodge, District, County and Grand Lodge level) most of whom are unregenerate men? Is this not apostasy?”
We don’t subject ourselves to religious authority from any lodge member.“13. Can you point to specific guidance from the Lord, proving that it is the Lord’s will that you should be an active member of any secret society?”
No. Fortunately, it isn’t a secret society. Unfortunately that means nutters can easily find our halls and torch them
Gasp. I just know there’ll be another 50 questions later today....sadly I’m off
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 09:01 AMkensei: Of course, the comparison between the BNP and SF is, well we’ll be charitable here, spurious, considering SF is undoubtedly a left wing part and for example, fairly friendly to immigrants or gay people excetera.
Their language, Ogra excepted, is normally fairly inclusive
The distinction between left and right is all a bit irrelevant, since both organisations specialise in pointing the finger of hate. And I had in mind, particularly, Ogra, given their recent outburst of bile. Hatred against a serious threat to Independence and Freedom, perhaps? Nope - hatred against a tiny minority - but just too different to be tolerated.
Both the BNP and SF have moved into suits, and give safe sound bites in public. But it will take more than that to clean up their image - they have form.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 09:05 AM*Holy mother of Charles Darwin, Diarmuid, I hope you’re joking.*
I’m sure he is but don’t bet on it.
I once had a lad who worked for me who played in a Republican flute band and who once got very angry because another band participating in the same parade as him was carrying a “loyalist hun” flag, no one for the life of them could work out what he was referring to until they saw a band whose members were carrying the flags of the four provinces.
He had no idea that the ancient province of Ulster had its own flag with a red hand on it.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 09:07 AMSurely the Cops can tell if it’s organised. Forensic evidence of MOs and materials used etc. On the tele the cops always have maps with incident locations marked. Morse was good at inferring stuff from them.
Is there a co-ordinated police operation ? Have the Police made their views known ?
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 09:32 AMOh no- another fire to fight
“a It needs to expel all members who are members of proscribed organisations or who have criminal convictions related to sectarian offences.”
...and just how are we to know or prove who is a member of these organisations? Of course in the interests of consistency you’ll not extend respect to Sinn Fein until it does likewise, but funny, your absence in cyberspace supporting those of us who oppose the present adminstration is rather striking....
“b. It needs to apologise for its close links to Loyalist murder gangs.”
Firstly we don’t have close links, though obviously some members in lowlevel local lodges have been paramilitaries. The clearest case of institutional linkage with murder gangs in NI is ..our deputy first minister’s party- again!!So much piss and wind again then.“c. It need to fully recognise and engage with the Parade’s Commission.” And that’ll get respect- yup, that worked in Portadown this/last year. Brendan McKenna just loves the jaffas
“d. It needs to relax its rules about expelling members who attend catholic services, such as the wedding of a catholic friend.”
That’s “relax” as in “not enforce for years"- oh gosh that’s already happened - no expulsion on this ground for decades, but hey, print the myth“f. It needs to introduce a very strong Code of Conduct for its members aimed at promoting the ‘civil society’ that Mr Fealty mentioned, and it needs to enforce that code.” Why?
“There are lots of smaller things the order could do, such as apologise to the family of the police officer, Greg Taylor, who was beaten to death by an Orange Order mob during a protest in Dunloy, for the statement by the then grand master of the Orange Order, Martin Smyth, excusing his brutal murder as “men on the ground receiving consequences of a wrong decision by a senior police officer”.
Ah, and it was all going so well.
Constable Taylor- whose family I knew well BTW and I was extremely sorry he was killed- was murdered in Ballymoney after a non-Orange band parade by men who were not members of the Orange order, and his murder was-unfortunately for your thesis- condemned by the Order. See- just when you’re trying so hard to appear reasonable, you just have to revert to typePosted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 09:35 AMDarth, do you suppose there might have been a connection between the murder of Constable Taylor and the subsequent savage beating of his son?
I see there have also been attacks on a Presbyterian Church on Derry’s Walls.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 10:17 AMIf the answer is “Sally Anny halls aren’t attacked”, it suggests to me that this particular Protestant organization has done nothing to invite protest.
Dawkins,
I’d be interested in your thoughts as to what that Presbyterian church in Derry Nevi mentioned had done to “invite protest” in this case?Sang the “Old Rugged Cross” too loudly on a Sunday morning perhaps or do you think there just, might be, possibly, the same motivation at work both there and with the attacks on the Orange Halls ?
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 10:50 AM“a denial of equality to Presbyterians and Protestants” MMcG
I thought Presbyterians had always been Protestants, dissenting or otherwise.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 10:57 AM“The distinction between left and right is all a bit irrelevant, since both organisations specialise in pointing the finger of hate.”
Specialise? And the best you ahve got to come p with is the youth wing in Dublin acting a bit nutty?
“And I had in mind, particularly, Ogra, given their recent outburst of bile.”
UUP - homophobic due to their youth wing. SDLP - communist.
“Hatred against a serious threat to Independence and Freedom, perhaps? Nope - hatred against a tiny minority - but just too different to be tolerated.”
Check your paper - it isn’t 1983.
“Both the BNP and SF have moved into suits, and give safe sound bites in public. But it will take more than that to clean up their image - they have form.”
Yeah, SF have the form of decommissioning going through a 20 year process to move into politics, accepting the police force and telling people to go to them when these things happen.
What is it about SF that cause complete mental breakdown in people?
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:02 AMoneill, I think it’s just the ‘immune system’ of our form of apartheid kicking in. Those whose faces don’t fit are ‘encouraged’ to depart or are not permitted to enter or pass through. It can be found in many communities, especially those where paramilitary mindsets (still) hold sway.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:05 AMNevin
think it’s just the ‘immune system’ of our form of apartheid kicking in. Those whose faces don’t fit are ‘encouraged’ to depart or are not permitted to enter or pass through.To an extent, I’d agree with you and (it should go without saying) that’s not obviously a one-direction system. But the number and location of attacks on Orange and protestant church property this year is completely out of synch with the “acceptable” level of sectarian hooliganism and vandalism that’s taken place over the last few years.
Reading the bare report on the church attack, I’d guess it’s probably a part of the random “normal” sectarian type, rather than part of a wider plan, but the point I was trying to make to Dawkins is that an attack on an Orange Hall (whatever you think of the OO and I’m not a big fan either to be honest) is perceived by the protestant minority as much an attack on their right to exist in that particuliar area as would be an attack on their church or school.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:20 AM-
That illustrates some organisation in this particular area.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:40 AM Darth -
“It isn’t a secret organisation. It isn’t a religious organisation, but an organisation ofr the religious- like a church bowling club it has a distinct function”
Not clandestine perhaps, but it’s business is conducted behind closed doors and is not necessarily either legal or moral. That’s the inference in that question.
“No. the Salvation Army was originally violently opposed by the unsaved, and the same accusations were made. Time gave the true perspective.”
Are we talking in millenia before the OO starts to look good?
“No. And the key is “ex-Lodge members”.Why join if you don’t know what you’re getting in to- and why leave if you have consistency of principle?”
So logically you’re saying you have strong anti-Catholic feeling, cannot love your neighbours and rarely witness to them?
“If true, what’s your point? God will judge”
The point is the rest of us have to deal with the consequences in the meantime.
Harry
“Republicans could have chosen another colour, say Saint Patrick’s blue (the official colour of Ireland on the president’s coat of arms by the way), as representing Irish protestantism, or red to represent Ulster (OK that would have caused problems with the Italians) or purple to represent the royalism of so many protestants. They didn’t they chose ORANGE.”
FFS, man. It happened hundreds of years of ago. Can you not see we don’t live in the 1800s any more, and that tired argument has precisely nothing to do with contemporary reality?
These days the colour of the flag is what’s known as an historical relic. Like your argument.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:45 AMoneill and Dewi, perhaps it’s just a variant on the earlier but discontinued Athboy strategy ie designed to provoke a reaction from ‘the other tribe’.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:49 AMPoint being at least the County Derry attacks apeared to be a bit organised.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:51 AMIf the attacks are connected, it at least offers our inept police force the opportunity to catch and punish the people responsible. Not that I believe for a second that they would be interested in putting in the effort to catch anyone. This is partially because any crime that seems, to me at least, to be in anyway serious carries a maximum penalty of getting your mug on the paper and 20 hours community service.
This is unless you as a general rule are a law abiding working person, in which case you can expect the full rigours of the law to come down on you, should you commit the heinous crime of forgetting to pay your car tax or something. Sorry. Rant over.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:52 AM“Can you not see we don’t live in the 1800s any more”
Snakebrain, the historical events of the 1640s and the 1790s are still being played out in North Armagh and they have knock-on effects elsewhere. IMO those who don’t know our local histories can easily make decisions which have very nasty and predictable consequences.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2007 @ 11:57 AM
