Tuesday, June 06, 2006
On the protection of sources…
Following on several detailed discussions on Slugger (here and here) of the accusations by Martin Ingram about the loyalities of Martin McGuinness based on what he claims is a confidential MI6 transcript document of a Kathy Johnston offers these thoughts on the protection of sources.
From Kathy Johnston
“Liam Clarke knows that the Now Chief Constable Hugh Orde told the family of Mr Notorantonio that my claims that he featured within the Brian Nelson files and that he had been involved in the Stake knife story was true. Mr Clarke sat on that story because his sources did not want the story in the Public Domain. The Newspaper (the People) that did carry the story received an immediate Injunction, forcing that paper to publish a blank page in recognition of the states desire to stop the story from being told. The Injunction made it clear that no mention of the murder could be made and further more a second injunction prevented the paper from telling the world that it had been injuncted in the first place.”
Hugh Orde, who was in charge of the Stevens Inquiry investigation at the time, told The Sunday Times in October 2000 that he had found no link between the Notarantonio murder and Stakeknife. In December 2000 he met the Notarantonio family to tell them that he had no evidence to confirm claims that Notarantonio was killed to protect Stakeknife. He also told them that Stakeknife did exist. In January 2001 Orde confirmed this to The Guardian.
MI brings up the question of injunctions. No action has been taken against the Sunday World - they weren’t, for example, injuncted against publishing their advertised follow up on Martin McGuinness or MI’s article last Sunday. Nor did they have to submit copy to the D Notice Committee, who made no moves to stop any organisation publishing this story, including Slugger. And Sunday World has not been contacted about the alleged J118 document by the police.
When Liam Clarke and I published authentic secret documents - telephone transcripts of MMcG’s conversations with Mo Mowlam and Jonathan Powell - in the paperback edition of our unauthorised biography of Martin McGuinness in April 2003, our house was raided by heavily armed police officers under the direction of Hugh Orde, by then PSNI chief Constable. They seized journalistic contact books, sack loads of personal, legally privileged and journalistic material, computer discs, a laptop and three hard drives. They imaged the laptop and the three hard drives. Simultaneously they used a battering ram to force entry to The Sunday Times office before seizing material from it. They arrested us at two o’clock in the morning and held us at Antrim PSNI station for 23 hours, during which time we were separately questioned by detectives in four interviews each. We were re-arrested the following month and questioned again when we answered police bail. After a year and a half the police sent us a letter advising us that the DPP had decided that we should not be prosecuted ‘at the moment’. That is what happens when you publish genuinely secret documents.
We never at any time revealed the names of our sources for anything in the book – not under police questioning, not to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry when we gave evidence to them. We didn’t perjure ourselves with the police, nor with the Bloody Sunday Inquiry either - even when we had to answer to the threat of a custodial sentence for contempt. That is easy - you just have to say no and keep your mouth shut. MI is obviously aware that we have not revealed his true identity nor his whereabouts despite legal pressure to do so.
Nothing of any evidential value was found in the raid on our house and The Sunday Times office. We haven’t discussed the identity of any of our sources, nor their nature, with anyone and I stress that MI does not know who any of them are. Neither has anyone been convicted in connection with the book. Although one person was charged with leaking us stuff, he was found not guilty.
Mick Fealty @ 09:25 AM
Pat,
Do not be silly mate regarding Brian Keenan. Republicans are well aware of the friction between these two and it has being going on for years.
Pat, Me and Liam are at a disagreement over the document and whether I will alow him to examine it or not.On the broader issue their is concensus.
I used the two sources to hand, nothing more nothing less.
Now that you ask here is a few more.
There’s also a pretty good account of this in Chris Ryder’s book The
RUC, pp 216-220.
This piece with thanks to Kathy.On 20 March 1979 police watched as Keenan and McGuinness drove in separate cars towards the border.The RUC decided to intervene, and set up a roadblock just outside the mainly Protestant town of Banbridge, which, at 17 miles from the border was the last safe place for them to intervene. Keenan was in the first car stopped, a brown Honda Civic. McGuinness was following Keenan in a yellow Toyota..They were all detained under the Prevention of Terrorism Act where they tried to bluff their way. After a few days McGuinness and two other people were released with no charge, much to their surprise. However, three days later Keenan was in an army helicopter with anti terrorist squad detectives from Scotland Yard, who had a warrant for his arrest under the Explosive Substances Act. As they crossed the English coastline,Keenan claimed that two RAF jets buzzed them. It was an exciting trip, he told prisoners in Brixton jail, where he awaited trial.
In his pockets, police found three bank notes, one Libyan and two Irish, all roughly torn in half. The other halves were never found. They
also found a diary, with the entry: Hallo, Brian, my brother. Here is some money. This was a code that had been used frequently in the
past as a recognition signal between IRA and contacts in Libya. The signal was completed only on receipt of both the diary entry and the missing halves of the notes. This discovery compromised a major weapons shipment from Libya and in August 1979 a pilot, Sadiq Baahri,
disappeared after his plane was forced down at Benghazi in Libya. It was rumoured that he was subsequently jailed on Ghadafyâs orders after
refusing to fly weapons to Ireland, where he feared that Keenanân™s arrest had compromised him.For years after his arrest, rumours persisted that Keenan blamed McGuinness for setting him up, and he was said to have told fellow prisoners that McGuinness had signalled to the RUC at a previous roadblock.Conspiracy theorists claimed that McGuinness™s rigid Catholic doctrine had influenced him to dump the Marxist Keenan on ideological grounds; for others, it was simply a victory for the new strategy over the armed struggle. It was common knowledge among fellow republicans that their relationship was strained at times, but it was Keenanâns carelessness that led to his being seen with McGuinness, who was the RUC™s prime
target. McGuinness was too shrewd to let his guard drop for a moment, but nevertheless he and Adams were certainly the main beneficiaries of
Keenan’s detention. Keenan would undoubtedly have opposed their embryonic plans to engage in political activity in the Irish Republic without an accompanying military strategy, and his absence gave McGuinness a free hand as sole Chief of Staff.”Ingram Comment. Make that a fiver`s worth of lottery tickets Martin with your luck who needs a tenners worth.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 10:21 AM‘Do not be silly mate regarding Brian Keenan. Republicans are well aware of the friction between these two and it has being going on for years.’
You made quite a few definitive statements, based as I believe, agreeing with Clarke (moan), on the basis that you state things over and over again you end up convinced by your own opinion. I am sure psvchiatrists have a term for that.
So to what Keenan actually believes, as he isn’t on record regarding MMcG we are once again expected to take what you believe at face value.
As for the Ryder quotation, once again you are using another journalist on the basis of what is written and taken it as fact. ‘Rumours persisted’ & ‘he was said to have told fellow prisoners’ all very vague one would have to say.Scatter gun and really a bit lame. You promised much and have delivered very little and even journoes who have a hatred of SF think that you are trying it on a bit.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 11:15 AMPat,
The material is in the public domain Pat and you know it.Brian KEENAN has been quoted many times on this issue and has never issued a denial.
How would you like to share my fivers worth of lottery tickets Pat or better still ask Gerry Kelly he seems very quiet at the moment.LOL
You are right about Sinn Fein only because they are corrupt and not working towards a United Ireland. Like Dermot Ahern said he would not want to enter Government with Sinn Fein for he would be sitting next to a British Agent? who was he refering to I wonder????Answers on a Post card to Box 850 all cards will be re directed from Box 500.
Martin
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 11:46 AMPat me and Liam are at a disagreement over the document and whether I will show it to him or not, to examine it.’
This document could have been forged in the light of historical analysis and revelations. You say the IRA knows this to be true because it fits. BUT it could have been made to fit. For all anyone knows it could have been written eighteen months ago from someone with the know how to do so after pouring over books and interviews from people involved at the time.
Until the document is examined by an expert who knows what he is looking at and can tell the age of the document by subjecting it to analysis, then it is not worth the paper it is written on.
A lot of the complaints you are posting about mcguinness, as was said by mccann on RFE, can be explained due to the contradictions in the PRM going along the lines of the peace process and the GFA and the stepping stones policy embraced by the Adams leadership. That does not make them agents.
They may have brought the movement to where it is today, and it may not be everyones cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean they were agents. McG is historically known to have been in contact with british intelligence, thru Oakley, but again that was the process they embraced, that is not to say he took money for information and had a handler.
All you have there in this document is a piece of paper incriminating the british state, you have no authentication it is genuine, other than your own say so, and no postive link between it and mcg or anyother member of the republican movement.
Quite frankly, to produce it without proof, with no link to who is talking in it, or when it is written, how old the document is, and IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DISSED BY AN EXPERT is only shit stirring.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 11:52 AMThe material is in the public domain Pat and you know it.Brian KEENAN has been quoted many times on this issue and has never issued a denial.
I am unaware of anything like this being in the public domain. Similarly I am unaware of Keenan being asked a direct question on the issue.
‘How would you like to share my fivers worth of lottery tickets Pat or better still ask Gerry Kelly he seems very quiet at the moment.LOL’
I am uaware of Keely being asked any questions on the MMcG allegations. It is strange you are making so much out of the fact on Gerry Kelly hasn’t said anything. Perhaps it is a case of no one asking him.
‘You are right about Sinn Fein only because they are corrupt and not working towards a United Ireland.’
If that is an attempt to flex your pro UI credentials it is simply flacid.
‘Like Dermot Ahern said he would not want to enter Government with Sinn Fein for he would be sitting next to a British Agent? who was he refering to I wonder????’
Having seen the interview it was very much tongue in cheek and an opportunistic attack on political rivals.
Your banter, while amusing (at times), do little to disguise the fact that your story on MMcG is very nearly running on empty.Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 12:05 PMPat, call me pedantic but how can something nearly run empty if something never had anything in it in the first place?
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 12:13 PMBetty,
i’m referring to the mileage that even the more sympathetic journoes have given to the story. Though MI has to be commended for his ‘let’s get it on’ call for a face to face discussion. No such thing etc etc.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 12:26 PMPat,
more and more I tend to believe that the public interest wee Jack is always throwing around is that of our protection from such dented notions and resulting self harm.Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 12:53 PMMartin,
Sitting on these documents for 18 months plus without getting them verified or analysed forensically before making your allegations is a little short-sighted and totally irresponsible.
What headlines can we expect in the papers this weekend “Big Gerry is a Manchurain Candidate”??
Wasnt Hitler that said the bigger the lie, the more likely the masses are to beleive it… In this case I guess he was wrong.
Whatever little credibility you have had, you’ve now pissed away in pursing such claims without any unequivocal evidence.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 12:59 PMIs this slugger through the looking glass? Ingrams a republican and Mcguinness a brit? Could they be related? I think we should be told!
From Darling Deirdre
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 02:19 PMMartin Ingram, call it a day. There is no evidence against McGuinness. He negotiated with the Brits for decades and got a bad deal. He is not the only one in Irish history to have done that. The Brits had the power to shape things their way and republicans did not. None of it means McGuinness is in the pay of MI6. When those normally prepared to give you a fair wind on your allegations don’t back you on this or even criticise you, it is time to leave it; even if for another day if anything emerges. If it does no one will be able to keep it down.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 02:46 PMPat,
Ingram is making a point about Brian, that is known and accepted in Republican circles and you know it so stop playing games. It weakens any argument you may have.
Liam,
You have refused to confirm after being asked three times regarding the book. I take it then you are indeed writing a book and any attack upon the document should be seen in that light. It is clear from your work that you to thick McGuinness is an Agent yet you seem reluctant to express yourself clearly.
Kathy.
I notice you did not take issue with Ingram regarding the ” Well Known journalist” piece written by Ingram. I have noticed in Ingrams writing subtle signs, I take it this was in connection with Liam ? is that true on who did he write a e mail to ?
What was the crimes he appears to be concealing and why use is position to intimidate?
Ingram.
I understand your reasons in respect to your sources, I accept this is a long game BUT can we speed things up a bit, Republicans like me want this man to be ousted for what, many know him to be.
DannyPosted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 03:24 PMDanny, I thought republicans would be content to see McGuinness collaborating with ‘traitors’ in the British establishment in order to hasten a United Ireland?
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 03:52 PMPat,
Quote"Having seen the interview it was very much tongue in cheek and an opportunistic attack on political rivals
LOL. Pat could you source that interview for me having been trying to locate same. Thanks mate for your kind words and in anticipation of your help in these matters.
Quote"Your banter, while amusing (at times), do little to disguise the fact that your story on MMcG is very nearly running on emptyPat,
As you may or not know Republicans are asking the real questions:
Here is just one within a chat room.
Author:
Philip
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Date Posted: 07:32:44 06/07/06 Wed————————————————————————————————————————
The writing is on the wall for brothers Martin and William McGuinness.A spate of Graffiti on walls all over Derry’s Bogside accused Martin and William McGuinness of being agents of MI6 and Special Branch.
William McGuinness and Charlie McMenemin spent all of last nights painting over the slogans. Wee Charlie is famous for being the only person to walk out of a diplock court after being found not guilty of attacking the two corporals at Casment Park even though he is clearly seen breaking the side window of their car on television.
You see the real questions are being asked in the heartlands not on Slugger mate , this is just a talking shop for Arm Chair generals.LOL.
Another Interesting post came my way today.
mcguinness cleared to vet operations…page 317
just before the death of seamus mcelwaine, killed by the sas in county fermanagh in april 1986, northern command got permission to vet most ira operations in northern ireland in a bid to forestall further electoral damage, ‘there had been some bad operations, politically bad operations, and this was done to correct that, recalled one activist. ‘McGuinness, the northern commander got authority from the army council to vet operations. Before that area commanders would run through their plans in very general terms, for example, ‘i have a policenan or a british patrol,’ with the chief ofstaff or director of operations. Now people had to go into the detail of the operations.
Ira activists had an almost pathological fear of sharing operational intelligence with people they did not know or wo did not come form their area. No one ever suggested that martin mcguinness or any other senior figures at his level were passing oninformation to the british but the very fact that the circle of operatnalknowledge was widened beyond those chosen to go on the mission heightened fears of leaks, surveillance and even treachery.Ingram Comment :Now, that was avery interesting period in both Martins and the RM campaign. Martin had only recently got over the Hegarty disaster regarding the massive loss of Libyan arms.
Then another major loss was suffered by the IRA when young buck McELWAINE was whacked and my mate Seanie was very lucky to escape.
Oh yes and then onto the turning point in the campaign. Loughall.
Hear is an extract from a Republican Mr Mc writing for his publication the blanket back in 2004 .
Quote"The Loughall massacre certainly throws up a range of challenges. But unionism is not alone in facing them. One avenue that will never be fully explored, no matter how many meetings take place between Mairead Kelly and Hugh Orde, is the possibility that IRA volunteers were deliberately targeted at Loughall after the British Government was made aware by a key element within the republican leadership that it was willing to parley and settle for considerably less than those who died that night were intent on securing; something that they might have revolted against had they not have been slain; something which in order to succeed necessitated their removal. Whether the British killed those volunteers to facilitate what later became known as the peace process may by the real story of the Loughall massacre.
To be continued.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 04:10 PMIngram comment:Today the fog of war is lifting, questions that are being put to Martin will not go away. He need to confront them , not avoid them like this poster makes a very valid point on a Republican site.
Author:
Martin’s fatalism reeks of guilt
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Date Posted: 04:28:04 06/06/06 Tue
In reply to: Radio Free Eireann ‘s message, “Martin Ingram Interview On Radio Free Eireann” on 19:17:59 06/04/06 Sun————————————————————————————————————————
Martin McGuinness has told UTV that he is “powerless” stop these allegations from being printed. This reeks of guilt - surely no innocent person would resign themselves to being named as a British agent.And why aren’t the other shinners running to defence like they did with Scappaticci? Could it be that they are all looking the other way because they too are informers?
Ingram Comment. LOL
Martin Ingram.PS. Danny sorry mate, this one is well planned like a piece of German Engineering.LOL
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 04:11 PMRepublicans like me ....
Come on, yer avvin a laff?
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 04:16 PMIngram: “Martin McGuinness has told UTV that he is “powerless” stop these allegations from being printed. This reeks of guilt - surely no innocent person would resign themselves to being named as a British agent. “
He is powerless to stop newspapers from printing stories. Additionally, it is well-nigh impossible to prove a negative, particularly given the dearth of information. McGuiness could deny until he was blue in the face and you’d make some comment like “See! See how desperate he is in his denials! He *MUST* be guilty.”
Hell, even if the documents currently in “evidence” are proved false, I’m sure someone will oblige with a “fabricated, but accurate” spin, just to keep the tale in play. His best bet is to keep low, get on with business and wait for the current crop of “evidence” to be debunked or verified. After that, its a matter of seeing what happens next.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 04:24 PM‘It is when he gets into the specifics that MI starts to flounder. The need to quote extensively from Mc Cann & Moloney and even Clarke et al as if they are the last word on anything exposes the fact that MI is in possession of no material on this case.
The scatter gun approach of hoping that if a lot of mud is thrown some at least will stick is again an indication of the weak case’The need to quote from ANYONE, the need to drag others, such a Brian Keenan into the discussion, the constant presence on a blog attempting to gain some credibilty ( along with the snide insults) tells me that Mr.Ingram has no case against Martin Mc Guinness. His activites are simply the dying throes of someone from the past who wants to be a player in the present and future.
In state/political/government matters, such as these, behaviour such as Ingram’s is seriously flawed and I must say quite laughable. It is like the child caught doing accusing fingers in the playground.
Let him state his case, produce his evidence, on his own merit, if not, dismissed!Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 04:55 PMMore like a Skoda than a Mercedes, Martin, hope you had it serviced
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 04:55 PMNever mind that neither Skoda nor Mercedes are german but the whole fuss is more a case of waste recycling then engineering of any kind.
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 05:05 PMIngram
You sound like a man who is struggling desperately to find some form of ‘backing’ for your claims about MMcG, scouring message boards and the like?If you are so confident of nailing Martin McG, you’d have no need to do this surely?
There has been anti-SF graffiti appearing at regular intervals in Republican areas of Derry since the GFA was signed in 1998 so please don’t be fooled into believing that this graffiti is justifying your claims one iota
Grasping at straws perhaps?
Can we expect more ‘revelations’ this weekend?
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 05:29 PMPS Ingram
I like your ‘source’ for your ‘backing’ (not)quoted above
A bunch of ‘dissidents’ who have been rambling on like this for the past 8 years or so :-)
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 06:09 PM‘You sound like a man who is struggling desperately to find some form of ‘backing’ for your claims about MMcG, scouring message boards and the like?
If you are so confident of nailing Martin McG, you’d have no need to do this surely?’
Creggan, you made my point so much better than I did. In matters this serious, and with such ramifications for a whole polity (sic), why would a person armed with FACTS, indisputable FACTS, bother to troll the internet, using names, to support his claims? You don’t see serious/important figures in any walk of life, representing themselves in such a way.
Absolutely absurd!
What I see are the attention cravings of a ‘has been’ who longs for the time when he was of any ‘relevance!’(sic) His role as an FRU officer often placed him in a position of deciding who lived and who died- a sort of “god complex”. Now cast aside to let the real players get on with the real business, his nefarious actions were ultimately of no value to anyone, especially himself. His FRU role required an ability to lie, deceive, set people up for assassination, and murder. And now he wants his reward, but the trouble is, once a lying manipulator, always a lying manipulator!Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 06:30 PM‘Martin McGuinness has told UTV that he is “powerless” stop these allegations from being printed. This reeks of guilt - surely no innocent person would resign themselves to being named as a British agent. “
No I’ll tell you what it reeks of. It reeks of Martin Mc Guinness having the class, decency and fortitude not to troll the internet with you, throwing around people’s names, looking for credibilty and attention.
Or he is too busy being the important player than you so desire to be?Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 06:34 PMThanks Maura
I’m only stating the obvious as have many others on here who are more than likely bored to tears by it all YET can’t help responding at the same time :-)
Posted by on Jun 07, 2006 @ 06:52 PM
