Friday, March 28, 2008
Dread
Sorry Im not going to go there as I have already said all religions imo are a curse, but anti Semitism was uncommon in the islamic world until modern times. Of course that did not mean it was totally absent, but it was not to the fore as it was in the Christian world.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 04:37 PM“it is surely our duty to point out to people, in shall we say less enlightened societies, the folly of repeating our grave mistakes.”
Yes, ok. But lets also try to drown out the voices claiming “themmuns” are all the same.
Chas
The prospect of millions of Muslims flying planes in suicide missions isn’t in my nightmares nor in those of anyone but the paranoid and insane.
Nuclear-armed born-again Christians stirring up anti-Islamic hatred and inciting mass murder with the intent of provoking Armageddon is a political reality.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 04:41 PM“ but to categorize all muslims as terrorists is just plain daft. “
I never said they were. I said that 10% cheered it. In a religion of 1 billion, that means 100 million are really pissed. That’s a problem.
A recent Poll put the number at 7%, but interestingly, none gave religion as a reason for their feelings. Perhaps this film blaming the Koran as the source of the problem is wide of the mark, and ignoring secular reasons for (7%) muslim hatred of the west.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 05:09 PM*If we Judge any religion by its fundamentalist whackjobs then none will come out looking any better than ISLAM did in this video*
I entirely agree, my point is that Christian “whackjobs” have been the target of critical analysis, abuse, lampooning and indeed in several case police investigations for decades now and other Christians have accepted it as part and parcel of living in a free society and indeed in many cases they have welcomed it.
My point is so utterly simple that I can’t understand why you have difficulty grasping it; why should Islam not be subject to exactly the same sort of scrutiny?
Mark’s use of the term “abuse of new media” in relation to this short film seems to imply that Islam should be exempt from such critical analysis, I fail to see why, perhaps you can enlighten me.
By the way you can count the number of abortion clinic and federal building bombings in the past century on the fingers of one hand, can you really equate them with the history of Islamist inspired terrorism in recent years?
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 05:15 PMJo, Let your heart not be troubled. When Armageddon comes, we’ll try to keep the noise down.
On the other hand, New york, Madrid, Bali, London, etc, did exceed a safe decible level.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 05:21 PMMick Hall: “Sorry Im not going to go there as I have already said all religions imo are a curse, but anti Semitism was uncommon in the islamic world until modern times.”
What you said was that the Koran portrayed Jews in a good light, which it doesn’t.
Likewise, I don’t think the fact that there weren’t Nazi-style camps and crematoria in Saudi Arabia at the time of the the Prophet necessarily absolves them of anti-Semitism, particularly given the contents of the Koran and other canonical documents.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 05:23 PMHarry: isn’t the point that this was not a reasoned analysis of the state of one of the worlds largest religions, but a clear attempt to cobble the nastiest pieces together to portray the whole religion, and anyone who follows that religion, as a blood-lusting, power-mad lunatic! Therein lies the abuse.
I know what a nutjob Paisley was/is, but I doubt every presbyterian supported and armed the UVF!! Would you not object if such a perception were prompted? Or would you accept it is a fair and reasoned criticism of the religion and all followers of the Free Ps? After all, a certain proprtion would fill that niche. Is there an obvious parallel with leading clerics and the IRA? Maybe, but I can’t think of one at the moment.
The same furore would, I expect, erupt if any of the religions were portrayed like this. Charles from Texas point was intersting in that religion is not a driver of the hate of the west. Much more likely to be the perceived and actual imperial ambitions that are currently the hallmark of the US-led alliance. Yet again, religion is just the convenient vehicle through which the hatred can be channelled.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 06:07 PMAnd the crying of the hundreds of thousands who died in Iraq and Afghanistan was but a whisper, insofar as US TV was concerned.
Is Texas planning TV coverage of the deaths of the many Texans executed every year?
I’d doubt it, it might catch on. And there’s no need for such Reality TV when you have so much killing of the “Towelheads” to focus on.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 08:00 PMThe facts are legion. You apologists are clearly in a suspended reality delusion.
‘Sudan. 1.3 million Christians have been killed in the last few years. In what is becoming known as the Sudan Genocide, Islamic militias with full support from the Islamic-dominated government of Sudan are massacring Christians in villages, as well as certain refugee camps. The Sudan Genocide is the first genocide of this century and its perpetrators are Muslim.’
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 09:37 PMDread and Texas charles,
If US citizens were asked who were the people who lived in europe, I doubt very many would reply Christians, they would say they were Germans, English, Irish French and so on.
However if they were asked to describe who were the people who lived in the middle east they would likely reply muslims and Israelis. For most of you there is no difference between an Iranian, Turk or an Iraqi whereas in reality there are huge differences culturally and religiously.
For me sadly that is how many people from the USA blanket muslims, you rarely say the guy is Egyptian or Turkish, Syrian, or Iranian, far to many of you just rage on about muslims as if unlike those of us in the west simply they define themselves by their religion.[they do not]
The majority of those who live in the middle east no more attend the mosque on a regular bases than do people who were born into the Christians faith go to church. Apart from the major events in ones life like funerals weddings etc the vast majority of muslims no more think about religion than I do, which is hardly at all.
Believe it or not most muslims spend their daily lives doing things that even lads from the USA would recognize; and the only reason they now dislike the USA is because of that countries foreign policy. In the old days they took the same attitude to the English, such behavior is perfectly logical as through their empire and government the english shit upon them. Whilst today they believe it is the USA, are they wrong? Put your foreign policy right and this muslim thing that you all seem to fear so much will be no more.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 09:39 PM“Is Texas planning TV coverage of the deaths of the many Texans executed every year?”
Not to my knowledge Jo. We just stick a needle in their arm, very boring stuff. Al Queda does a much flashier job by setting office workers on fire with airplane petrol and having them jump 90 stories to their deaths.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 09:43 PMMick Hall,
It might surprise you that I have Muslim friends and have attended a service in a mosque. However, they all consider their first mark of identification as Muslim. Your admonition of most Americans not being able to find Syria on a map is unfortunately true, but I would say the same of the average man on the street in Belfast or London.
Your Servant Sir
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 09:52 PMMick Hall
Your an anti-American fool, with not a wit of understanding about what the USA is about. You seem to be unaware of the tremendous amount of historical, factual, data about Islamic murder. To deny factual evidence, point blank, and all your moral equivalence crap, is a comical, clown car experience.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 11:05 PMDon’t look now, but Fitna has been withdrawn due to threats! Those pesky Anglicans are at it again.
Posted by on Mar 29, 2008 @ 02:50 AM*The majority of those who live in the middle east no more attend the mosque on a regular bases than do people who were born into the Christians faith go to church. Apart from the major events in ones life like funerals weddings etc the vast majority of muslims no more think about religion than I do, which is hardly at all.*
You’re being a bit disingenuous there Mick, the Muslim world would indeed be a better place if the majority of Muslims treated their religions as the majority of Christians in the west do; good for weddings and funerals etc but little else, alas this is far from the case.
At least half of the Muslims I know pray five times a day, for the entire month of Ramadhan about 98% fast for their faith. Don’t get me wrong, I am not alleging that they are all throat slicing fanatics, absolutely not but to pretend that Islam is a sort of a la carte, take it or leave it sort of thing for most Muslims is totally incorrect.
Islam for many if not most Muslims is indeed their primary identifier, not surprising really when for most Muslims their country of origin is probably a construct of colonial administrators less than a century old whereas Islam is regarded as timeless.
Posted by on Mar 29, 2008 @ 02:56 AMI was reading a very interesting link about Isaac and Ishmael, here’s some snippets.
Bible = Genesis 17:18,19 “And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shall call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him”.
Koran = 19:54 “Also mention in the Book [the story of] Ishmael: He was [strictly] true to what he promised, and he was a messenger [and] a prophet”.
Bible = Genesis 16:12 “And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him”.
The Bible called Ishmael a wild man; the Koran called him messenger and a prophet.
“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid [Ishmael], the other by a freewoman [Isaac]. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh [Ishmael]; but he of the freewoman was by promise [Isaac]. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Hagar [Ishmael-Mohammed], for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all [Isaac-Christ]… Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise [Bible-Christianity]. But as then he that was born after the flesh [Koran-Islam] persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” (Galatians 4:22-29)
Christians and Moslems do not simply have two different fathers (Isaac and Ishmael) and two different books (Bible-Koran), but they have two completely different spirits: one brings freedom, the other brings bondage; one leads to life, the other leads to death.
In the Bible we see that God wants us to make the choice (freedom). “I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live” (Deuteronomy 30:19). But according to the Koran, Allah chooses the way for us (bondage). “This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed my favour unto you, and have chosen for you as your religion Islam” (Sure 5:3).
Christianity has spread because Christ died to His own desires and in the end gave His life for us. Islam, on the other hand, has spread because Mohammed lived for his own desires and killed everyone who tried to stand in his way. We can see this very clearly in our generation, where countries are opening the door for the gospel of Jesus Christ. With the establishment of democracies, nations have the freedom to choose life or death, Bible or Koran, because God set before us life and death, blessing and curse (Deuteronomy 30:19). And we have to make our own choice, even if it is the wrong choice; this is freedom. But in every nation where the law of Islam rules or even when most of the nation’s people are Moslems, we see that there is no democracy, no human rights, no freedom to choose their own religion, because they say God has “perfected their religion for them, and ha[s] chosen for them their religion Islam” (Sure 5:3). A choice was made for them before they were born; this is slavery.
Posted by on Mar 29, 2008 @ 01:52 PMI’m glad the absence of a strong narrative line allowed the discussion on this piece to develop.
I have strong feelings about the video but wouldn’t be for censoring it as it reveals much about mindsets in place, developing and being promoted.
My first concern is about the very base manipulation of facts and images. Taking isolated quotes, linking them to despicable acts and then using them to damn a huge number of people is contemptible.
My bigger concern is the demonstration that for many the ‘War on Terror’ is actually a war on Islam. A sectarian sham, where the lives of many millions are seen as worthless and their persecution justified based on the actions of a tiny minority. The mindset that allows Palestine to rot, Iraq to descend into squalor and fear and primes people for further acts of violence like a potential invasion of Iraq.
It dehumanises every Muslim, makes each and every one an enemy to be dealt with. Those buying into this, all as enemy, argument are buying into some very dangerous philosophy.
I see each and every person that sees this partial and manipulated piece of worth as potentially more dangerous than anything supposedly being opposed. For they would surely cheerlead us into a blood bath of massive proportions.
Everything about the piece disgusts me and I’m horrified that so many here thought it of any value. Its a call to holocaust and bloody shameful.
Though I’m glad it exists because it exposes the dark heart lurking behind certain projects.
Posted by on Mar 29, 2008 @ 09:57 PMAh yes. It’s not them, it’s us!
Bollocks!
Posted by on Mar 29, 2008 @ 11:46 PMCharles,
Thats my concern. Those that make it ‘them’ and ‘us’ and where that takes everyone.
As you’ve bought into it, do you need the end of every single ‘Islamist’ or just the end of Islam for victory?
Posted by on Mar 30, 2008 @ 12:10 AMMark,
I have no problem with the religion of Islam or those who practice it. I have my doubts as to whether Islam is compatible with western democracy, but the jury is still out.
Victory for me would be the end of those Islamists groups whose primary aim is to kill innocent civilians to further political aims. Such groups are Hamas, Hezb’allah, and of course, Al-Qaeda.
Simple really (in theory, however very difficult in practice!)
Posted by on Mar 30, 2008 @ 02:53 AMHow is utilizing the media that Islamacists, themselves create and put out there to document their oppressive, corrupt behaviors in any way abusive?
Wilders only allowed their own actions and words to speak for themselves. It’s not his fault that they do so effectively. As an American who is of half Irish ancestry (half indigenous, Wampanoag), I’m more than well aware that Ireland had an alliance of sorts with the Nazis. It’s much harder to make excuses for that sort of thing when you have the likes of Gerry Adams dallying with extremists in Columbia and elsewhere, Bertie Ahern making bad jokes about trading human beings like chattel, and the overall combination of fascism, racism and bigotry that is widespread in Ireland. It kind of shows their might have been more than smoke in the stereotypes of the Irish over the centuries.
Posted by on Mar 30, 2008 @ 06:39 PMBit more info about the origins of the film and the storm it’s kicked of in Jakarta
Posted by on Apr 01, 2008 @ 12:28 AMWith a bit more patience i would have linkedthisaswell!
Posted by on Apr 01, 2008 @ 12:32 AMI love this guy. Listen to the end....
Posted by on Apr 01, 2008 @ 01:35 PM
