Thursday, September 04, 2008
“OK, you can say that the governments didn’t extract that from everyone in writing…”
Frank Millar has a book out from the Irish Academic Press called ‘Northern Ireland – A Triumph of Politics’ coming out this Autumn. In it he has a series of candid interviews with figures from Northern Irish politics over a considerable period of time. One of the most interesting is one with former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, who throws him a particularly juicy line of argument regarding that controversial deadline/timetable controversy:
Giving his account of the vital negotiations preceding the DUP/Sinn Fein deal that saw the Rev Ian Paisley installed as First Minister, Mr Ahern tells Frank Millar:
“Paisley could never have made the move he made unless there was an acceptance that policing was going to work. And the Shinners could never have made the decision unless there was an acceptance of the devolution of policing. That was the quid pro quo, which is hugely important.”
With that issue left for new First Minister Peter Robinson and Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness to resolve, Mr Ahern, in an interview recorded after he left office in May, emphasised his belief in a prior understanding between the two sides. “Just remember on that point, because I did that bit of the negotiations myself with Ian and with Gerry Adams,” he told the author, “and it was the quid pro quo”.
When asked if he feared Sinn Fein might be tempted to “flex muscle” and set an early “test” for the new Robinson leadership over issues like the devolution of policing and justice powers, Mr Ahern said he thought not, while repeating that “Sinn Fein had a cast iron guarantee that 1st May (2008) was the deadline’ for achieving it.
The chapter ‘Ireland at Peace’ continues: “(Millar) Cast iron? (Ahern) ‘It was absolutely crystal clear from the British Government and from everybody else.’ But from the DUP? ‘Everybody that would move… I mean there’s no doubt May was the date.’ Yet the DUP has consistently said it never signed up for May 2008? ‘Yeah, well, I mean listen,’ says Mr Ahern, clearly unimpressed with any protestations to the contrary now: ‘The devolution of policing from May was part of the deal in my view. OK, you can say that the governments didn’t extract that from everyone in writing but it was what the two governments agreed and everybody else agreed.”
Mick Fealty @ 07:45 PM
There we have it, P&J;was part of the bigger picture.
Bit of a slap in the face for detail-addicted junkies.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:26 PMMick
It’s interesting that you headline the piece with that line, particularly as Ahern is very clearly accusing the DUP of reneging on agreements reached.
Terms like “cast iron guarantee” and “quid pro quo” very clearly indicate that, as far as Ahern is concerned, the DUP stand indicted for refusing to adhere to the May date reached as a result of negotiations.
Taken together with Brown’s statements yesterday regarding the devolution of policing and justice, I’d say it suggests quite clearly that both governments are firmly placing the onus on the DUP to move at this juncture and, ergo, also indicating who should be blamed if things unravel in the coming weeks.
It’ll be interesting to hear if the US administration were privy to any agreements reached.
Of course, none of that will necessarily shift the DUP from their stance.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:32 PMMicro-management is mismanagement.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:35 PMWe’ve finally got a thread where all the big players are mentioned be they British/Irish/Ulster or whatever.
Can someone tell me how many United Irishmen actually became Unionists?
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:38 PMthis part of history has become interesting in my life and I would appreciate it if anyone could direct me to impartial information of those United Irishmen who became Unionists, instead of the old Irish stuff.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:43 PMYeah - that’s probably how it played. Strangely I appreciate Robinson’s dilemma - but a bit of courage (after all it’s DUP poicy to devolve P and J) will get this through.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:44 PMHello, Can you ask the Taoiseach how many united Irishmen became Unionists, thanks
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:54 PMMick
Perhaps, in the circumstances, the most interesting revelation from Ahern is this line -
“because I did that bit of the negotiations myself with Ian and with Gerry Adams..”
The rest of Bertie’s claims fit a familiar pattern of offering political cover to those under most pressure.
“OK, you can say that the governments didn’t extract that from everyone in writing..”
Indeed. Wonder why that was..
In the meantime, we have what they did agree in writing.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:56 PMPete Baker: “[Sinn Fein...] having had their claims of an imaginary DUP commitment to devolve policing and justice powers by May 2008 comprehensively rebutted”
Hmmmm
comprehensively rebutted. Yeah.to think Pete of the time of you invested doing all those cross-referenced links.
On another note: I don’t see any other way that this will go where Robinson can save face. He keeps making this harder and harder for himself.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 08:58 PMqubol
Not much of a “cast iron guarantee” in the circumstances, even if that’s what Bertie now claims he secured.
“The devolution of policing from May was part of the deal in my view..”
That might well have been his view.
The target date was aspirational after all.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 09:09 PMPeteB: “Bertie now claims”
when did he claim otherwise?
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 09:18 PM“The target date was aspirational after all” but not inspirational as the DUP need to be inspired and make this agreement work - it would be observing the spirit of the overall agreement, which when signed was to provide ‘the confidence’.
War’s over PM Brown and Blair et al know it, we know it - there is confidence only Jim Allister hasn’t the confidence and he only knows how not to make the arrangements work to satisfy his own need to score political points.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 09:24 PMChris,
I thought it was the most relevant line. As you know Pete has been all over this issue like a rash. Everywhere you look, whether it’s in the Commons Hansard for October/November 06 or in the SAA confirms that the deadline was not in that Agreement.
I can understand why SF feels it’s been cheated, if there was this clear an understanding between the three men. But in the end, it’s not what’s ended up on paper and therefore from the time the legislation was enacted that particular timetable was never going to be enforceable in the way the other elements clearly were.
It looks like they got ‘Trimbled’ as the DUP would put it. Which begs the question of why, given how the IRA strung Trimble along over decommissioning (effectively sealing his political doom in October 2003), they thought the DUP would behave any differently with them?
And like Trimble, it’s going to be very difficult for them to win any ‘blame game’ on this.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 09:39 PMHa! From the horse’s mouth! That should fuck some boringly repetitive people up.
*looks up*
Or maybe not.Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 09:55 PMthe DUP seem more interested in a process of humiliation ( see Dodds’ language ) than the realpolitik of the situation.
The DUP are finding no-one is supporting their position.
Neither the Britsh nor the Irish Gov’ts and not Hugh Orde.Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 09:56 PM“And like Trimble, it’s going to be very difficult for them to win any ‘blame game’ on this.”
Mick - u r far better than that nonsense. This is important.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:04 PMAnd like Trimble, it’s going to be very difficult for them to win any ‘blame game’ on this
Mick
In whose eyes? If it is the case that Brown and Ahern are backing up the Sinn Fein stance, then who exactly is going to blame Sinn Fein for the crisis, beyond those already aligned with the DUP and opposed to republicans.Crucially, unlike Trimble, republicans have no electoral threat to contend with and therefore would appear in a strong position to either hold out for p and j at this time, or secure other ‘holding’ concessions from the British to buy more time for that devolution to occur.
Either way, republicans would appear to have more options open to them at this juncture than the DUP.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:04 PMBrown hasn’t actually done that, Chris. And, unless he’s going to produce a previously unpublished memo, Ahern has nothing beyond “his view” to evidence on the matter - Reliable witness that he has been.
qubol
“when did he claim otherwise?”
You appear to misunderstand my point.
Which was, when did Ahern claim something beyond what was agreed in writing?
It certainly wasn’t mentioned in February.
Sure, as Mitchel McLaughlin has just informed us
“In any event, the issue of whether the DUP agreed to the May 2008 deadline for the transfer of policing and justice powers, or indeed subscribed to the introduction of the Irish Language Act, is a red herring.”
Or is that now no longer the case..
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:19 PMI agree that Bertie “I won it on the horses” Ahern is providing cover to the Shinners to get them off the hook they put themselves on by lying to their own supporters about a timetable for devolution of P and J - a timetable that they were required by their Ard Fheis to secure before entering the Executive. Having failed to secure it, they simply claimed they had secured it (but didn’t bother their arses getting something that important in writing), and merrily entered the Executive contrary to the terms of their own mandate, hoping the governments would clean up the mess the Shinner left behind on their way to where the British government told them to go, i.e. to Stormont.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:21 PMPete
I believe you were accusing me of psychosis when I suggested SF might have had some private guarantees. I believe I left it so open that that said guarantees could have came form any quarter. Mmmmm. Vindication. Feels good.
And before you start, I fully accept that they should have got it down in writing. But cock up is certainly more forgivable than actual malice.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:29 PMpeteb
I’m afraid your getting a bit lost here, and I’d suggest that’s because you’re not reporting in your threads what people like Hugh Orde are saying, or Brown, or the NIO.They’ve moved on, as has McLaughlin, as you’ve just quoted.
I’d further suggest your narrative is coming apart because what these officals are saying, is not fitting in with the way in which you want to tie this whole thing down.
It does help to look up once in a while.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:31 PMken
You seem to be implying that Sinn Féin accepted assurances from Bertie in the face of public statements to the contrary from the DUP?
Enjoy that vindication.
percy
On what was agreed at St Andrews, I think you’ll find I’ve noted just about everyone’s statements.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:39 PMThe continued dancing on the head of this now historical pin obvioulsy supples great interest to those who either dont grasp the real politics of the sitaution ie the political isolation of the DUP or are ideologically compelled to hide behind the sofa as the events unfold.
The screeching sound of Pete’s arguement (SF are in a hole ) being stretched to try and cover the actual facts, amusingly, just gets seems to get louder.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:41 PMIf Defence, Foreign Policy, taxation etc remains at Whitehall, why not Policing and Justice? Who gives a shit? We are de facto ruled by London anyway, and de jure. The wee pretendy executive at Stormont is a punch and judy show, move it to Tyrella beach. Why is everyone pretending that we are not governed by Westminster when we clearly are? And will be for the forseeable future thankfully.
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:45 PM“On what was agreed at St Andrews, I think you’ll find I’ve noted just about everyone’s statements.”
Indeed you have peteb.
Its just that paying attention to what they’re saying today
is notable by its absence from your threads.Do you think there a conspiracy going on to help SF off the hook?
Posted by on Sep 04, 2008 @ 10:54 PM
