Tuesday, August 19, 2008
Obama-McCain - the pastor was in the saddle
So the pastors are still in the saddle. Are reports of the eclipse of the religious right in this Presidential campaign premature? The prequel to the Obama-McCain main bout has just been held in a “Megachurch forum” in Saddleback Church California, moderated by the pastor no less, Rick Warren. The BBC’s Justin Webb appears to deplore this but EJ Dionne jnr of the Washington Post invites us to think again.
Quote:
“The notion that Christianity in general and evangelicalism in particular are by nature right-wing creeds has always been wrong. How can a faith built around a commitment to the poor and the vulnerable be seen as leading ineluctably to conservative political conclusions?
And when political commentators talk about “evangelicals,” they are almost always talking about white evangelicals, forgetting that millions of African Americans are devout evangelical Christians and are hardly part of the conservative base”.
The verdict on the debate was generally mixed, McCain having the edge for crispness but with a tie registering with Huffington’s young blogger. And there was a spat over whether McCain cheated by improperly overhearing the questions to MCain.
NY Times quote
“..It was McCain’s night. Obama made no big mistakes. But his tendency to somewhat windy generalities meant he wasn’t particularly compelling. McCain, who went second, was crisp by contrast, and his anecdotes colorful.”
Will Obama continue to trim or will he stake out firm new ground for a new era of secular politics in the US?
Brian Walker @ 08:47 AM
American politics seem to be increasingly theocratic.
I cant imagine someone running for president who was an athiest.The founding fathers had written into the constitution that there was no religious qualification for office.
Now I fear there is..............
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 09:56 AMAt least there is one realist at the HuffPost: Although Obama wins points for showing up, McCain was the clear winner
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 12:13 PMI’m always intrigued by oh so sophisticated Europeans who sneer at the concept of political candidates discussing their religious beliefs or lack of them. I think it shows a profound maturity on behalf of US politicians who are prepared to answer frankly questions about their personal and moral beliefs and whether morality should have a place in politics and society.
Instead Europeans snigger like schoolboys at such an embarrassing thought and restrict their poltical debate to how to administer a centrist left/centrist right economic policy whilst utterly ignoring the massive issues that actually affect voters but which the politicians have deemed from on high may not be discussed (national sovereignty, sexual morality, mass immigration etc).
I find the US system much more open, honest and refreshing.
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 12:46 PMHarry there is a european who is clearly driven by faith.
his name is Tony blair and there are a million dead Iraqis to prove his devotion to his imaginary friend jesus.
The USA is becoming a theocracy-it is going to be a feature of America’s decline in this centuryPosted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 01:10 PMAfter engaging as many Obamites as I can stand, I get the feeling that they are only the thin, elitist thinking, layer of our fine country. Their freedom is freedom from legal, financial, ethical, and social consequences. While the silent majority becomes more and more disgusted with this Democratic clown show. I thought early on, that Obama was a shoe in. Not any more. His circus is becoming truly exposed. The convention will be the final blow to his charade of the century. I’m not to familiar with mainstream religious beliefs of the EU, but, believe me, the VAST majority of Americans have a good moral, religious, belief system. The more these liberal fools bray their horrible little truths, the further away the majority slides.
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 01:12 PMare a million dead Iraqis
HA!
Turn in the tinfoil hat for industrial grade copper.
Another useful idiot..
Billions of your lot agree with you...<cackle>Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 01:16 PMIf Americans have good moral etc etc where does that leave all those dead Iraqis?
And, of course, the innocentgs of Tehran soon to be bombed?
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 01:19 PMPhil Mac Giolla Bhain, you do talk a load of old drivel!
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 01:22 PM6countyprod play the ball-even when the man is a lowly taig ;0)
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 01:35 PMRick Warren isn’t the worst of his kind, but he knows a gap in the spiritual/political marketplace when he sees it.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,825,The-God-Debate,Sam-Harris-Rick-Warren-NewsweekPosted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 01:43 PMFor those who are for some obscure reason uncomfortable (ie the BBC correspondent mentioned above, quelle surprise) with the idea that the two men who are running for the highest office in their nation should have an upfront and frank discussion about their core moral values and the path they’d like to see for their country, they should at least recognise that the conversations provided a clearer and more honest picture of what sort of man Senator Obama is.
Asked about his position on abortion he said straight out that he was “pro-choice”, fair enough that’s his political position and he wasn’t about to back away from it. Then when asked at what point he believed human life began he said such a question was ‘above his pay grade’, above his pay grade? The man is running for president of the United States! Surely he must have given some thought to such a fundamentally basic concept of humanity? Not once when coming around to his “pro-choice” position did he ever come to any conclusion about that matter? When he was mentored for twenty years by Jeremiah Wright his radical preacher did he ever ask him about this?
He can parse and analyse the minuscule differences between his and Hillary’s health care programme, he can come up with solutions to the oil crisis by inflating car tyres he can even claim that his nomination would stop the seas rising (President Canute?) but on an absolutely rock solid core value he’s out to lunch.
The man’s a clown, the Democrats have thrown away any chance of winning the White House in 2008.
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 01:59 PM“the massive issues that actually affect voters… (national sovereignty, sexual morality, mass immigration etc).”
I think that Harry Flashman may find that the Taliban in Afghanistan are pretty hot on this “sexual morality” business and quite prepared to fight to the death on the issue of national sovereignity while being none too pleased about the recent influx of unwelcome hostile immigrants from parts west. Can we take it, Harry that they thus enjoy your full unqualified support?
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 02:12 PMNice on Rory.
the Taleban are a “faith based organisation” LOLPosted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 02:21 PMI made no judgement on the issues, merely on the fact that at least dumbass Americans get to hear their leaders discuss the issues and then vote according to their beliefs.
We wonderfully suave and nuanced Europeans get Big Brother and Pop Idol.
I know the system that I prefer.
European leaders never really did like allowing the proles to think for themselves, so much better to leave it to the clever elites to decide don’t you think? Actually given Europe’s rather poor historical record in the last century not letting the proles get control might be the least worst option!
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 02:35 PMharry you have some very weird ideas about the freedom and openess of American elections
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 03:03 PMPMGB: To imply that because of Tony Blair there are a million dead Iraqis is the biggest load of drivel, rubbish, claptrap, poppycock that anyone could say.
I suppose you also think that the suffering caused by the Omagh bomb is TB’s responsibility, rather than Irish Republicans!
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 03:03 PMTB was very much the architecht of the Iraq war-he should be in the hague-sadly the Americans are not signed up to the ICC
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 03:11 PMIf Americans have good moral etc etc where does that leave all those dead Iraqis?
At the feet of the murdering Islamic terrorist bastards responsible for their deaths. AKA your friends.
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 03:23 PMDidn’t McCain say he was going to continue the Iraq war indefinitely, and pursue Osama to the gates of hell.
Obama stonewalled some questions alright, but you’d expect that of any politician. Wont make much difference to us, and neither will David CameronPosted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 03:28 PMBfB
fallujah
Hadditha
Abu Ghraib
Dear oh dear................Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 03:51 PMHarry, you seem to be saying that we are worse off in Europe because our politicians don’t, generally, openly discuss their religious beliefs during election campaigns like in America. I disagree.
Firstly, I’d say appearing at evangelical events such as these has a lot more to do with trying to win over the christian fundamentalist vote than it does with the candidates fulfilling some buring desire to discuss their beliefs (or lack of belief). This isn’t political maturity it’s just good old-fashioned electioneering.
Secondly, the idea that someone could appear at one of these events to discuss their lack of belief is laughable. Atheism in the USA is almosty akin to child moleatation in some people’s eyes, no candidate in their right mind would ever even imply that they had a lack of belief. No one would ever consider running for El Presidente in the US as an open atheist, so instead of the candidates being ‘prepared to answer frankly questions about their personal and moral beliefs and whether morality should have a place in politics and society’, they are more likely to have been forced to over-emphasise whatever religious beliefs they do have & of course conflate these beliefs with morality.
Thirdly, it can’t be a comfortable experience for those voters who are not Christians to see the to candidates indulge is a ‘Jesus-off’. At least in Europe our mainstream politicians respect the plurality of the electorate & don’t ened up alienating people by harping on about how much they love the christian god. I don’t think those who enter poltiics here have conspiried to not mention relion in their public life becasue it makes things easier for them, I think it’s just a recognition of the fact that most people in Europe don’t want to hear about it becasue it is utterly irrelevant to your capacity to be a good elected representative.
Clearly the USA is a much more religiously-minded society than any in Europe, I think that is why US political figures mention their religious beliefs more openly than we do here, not because we poor proles have been the victims of some continent-wide conspiracy by our politicians to hide their beliefs.
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 04:08 PMDriftwood: Didn’t McCain say he was going to continue the Iraq war indefinitely
No, Driftwood, he didn’t. You need to get a little perspective on reality.
Listen carefully to what he actually said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFknKVjuyNk
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 04:14 PMfallujah
Hadditha
Abu Ghraibadd up to a million Iraqis?!?
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 04:17 PM‘believe me, the VAST majority of Americans have a good moral, religious, belief system. ‘
That they do. That’s why there are 3 million behind bars , and prisons are used not only for convicted criminals, but also to house the mentally handicapped :( This could be also why a huge number of American corporate executives are behind bars for having been convicted of stealing and embezzling everything from pension funds to using every con game in the financial services sector to defraud ordinary americans . The corporate crime wave , an unpopular war , two million foreclosures not to mention the biggest deficit in USA financial history and Americans could be forgiven for turning away from the politicians , and the Wall St purveyors of mass destruction , and turn instead to religion ?
Surely God has an answer for his chosen special people ?
But when they do what they find in too many cases is just another shower of thieves and con men disguised as Jesus people. And if the sight of often obscene and frequently insane money grabbing televangelists does’nt help , they can resort to the Catholic Church where they will be greeted with an institution so riddled with sexual predators of the young that they have lost any pretence for moral guidance that they might have held a generation ago .
But despite the above the ‘vast majority’ of Americans do have a ‘good moral and religious belief system ‘
The problem is that within that vast majority is a large minority some commentators estimate it at some 30 to 35 % of the population who are so caught up in their ‘religiosity’ that they have forsaken reason in favour of ‘rapture ‘ and salvation by grace and faith alone . Most of these people are located in Jesusland (the South ) but there are signifcant pockets everywhere from Utah and it’s Mormons to Florida and it’s ‘Scientologists ‘ .
This is now the big divide in the USA along with the growing divide between the financial have lots and the financial not only having little but even having that little taken from then . Polls have shown that the Republicans have consistently won the vast majority of these 30% and to date they have delivered the election for Republicans . They won the 2004 and 2000 election for Bush . The mainly Mormon State of Utah gave Bush his biggest majority and they vote usually 85% plus republican - There are 5 million Mormons in the USA .
It will be interesting to see whether the ‘ultra believers’ will be suckered again into voting against their economic interest . But then many of them now believe that with Jesus just about ready to drop down and save everybody from Satan and rapture the followers of the Rev ‘send me your donation ‘ from the local mega church, why should they be worried about the economy -after all they are going to enjoy an eternity in heaven soon enough with Jesus and his choir of angels and then they’ll no longer have to worry about losing the house , feeding the family, or borrowing money up to the eyeballs to pay for health care and college for the kids, while enjoying the shortest life expectancy of all the developed countries :(
One other point for those who think that the 30% of ‘nutters’ will fade away - the birth rate amongst the ‘born againers’ is and has been a lot higher for this section of USA society than for the rest . And as we should know from NI politics - political opinions are formed in the womb and generally remain constant for most people from erection to resurrection or rapture for that matter .
All declining empires and great states share some things in common yet they also differ The USA is no different from 17th century Spain , 18th century Holland or 20th century Britain as it loses it’s perch of world leadership .
Bush has hastened that demise by a combination of fiscal and foreign policy errors on a scale that would have embarassed the Emperors Nero and Caligula :(
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 04:18 PMHadditha ?
What about it?
Posted by on Aug 19, 2008 @ 04:29 PM
