Sunday, December 23, 2007
Now he does do God…
his Donegal mother’s Catholicism. Blair, whose faith in God once found him exhanging religious literature with Ian Paisley, famously downplayed it publicly while in office, despite there having never been a Catholic PM in the UK. Many of the stories reporting the news claim the sensitive nature of the peace talks here may have played a role in delaying what many saw as inevitable. Fellow convert Anne Widdecombe has already questioned Blair’s credentials, after his backing for abortion, embryo research and Sunday trading. Perhaps Blair’s faith is as shallow as other aspects of his leadership? Ah well, sure God will judge him some day, if s/he exists!
Belfast Gonzo @ 01:53 AM
lib2016, considering our history of the past forty years (at least) I’m surprised you haven’t noted the dark sides of Unionism and Nationalism!!
I’d have thought the Catholic Church in the RoI had far more say over government social policy than any of the churches in the UK.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 09:17 PMpfhl, the Irish bishops proffered ’advice‘ on how to vote in the Nice Treaty; presumably something similar would happen in the UK on the EU and other matters.
As you continue this post you tell us how the Vatican and irish bishops put pressure on the church over Divorce and contraception. These are religious issues. The catholic church has got every right to raise its voice on these issues as they are quite clearly religious issues for them. This would happen whether the Vatican State existed or not as it would still be opposed to Catholic Doctrine. Under your reckoning a catholic can not hold a position of power because the Pope will pressure him.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 10:47 PMphfl, your post doesn’t make sense (to me).
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 11:33 PMCS, Widdecombe’s second comment needs to be seen in the context of the Pope being head of state as well as head of church.
pfhl, the Irish bishops proffered ’advice‘ on how to vote in the Nice Treaty; presumably something similar would happen in the UK on the EU and other matters.
I am still looking a reasonable explanation of your first point listed. You seem to suggest to me the catholic church puts pressure on its members to uphold the doctrines of the Catholic faith. What is the problem with this? Is this why there should not be a Catholic British PM? Can they not be trusted? How does the Vatican state influence this? I emphasize Vatican State as an independant state in an area of rome, not the catholic church which is worldwide. When has a Catholic leader had to show his loyalty to the Vatican rather than just the catholic faith that they profess? To me you have made a pointless comment on the Pope. You went on to justify this point by the actions of irish bishops in relation to matters which relate to catholic doctrine which they are in their right to do.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 12:36 AMSo let’s get this straight then.
Blair once believed the men in cloaks handing out wafers were being symbolic about the body of a dead Jewish spiritual guy but he now believes it’s actually part of his body.
And the churches have a bit more stained glass.
Oh and knock out the last line in the Lord’s Prayer.
I’m a Greek Orthodox meself.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 01:21 AMNevin,
The Catholic church in the South has far more adherents proportionate to the overall population than any single church in Britain has proportionate to the overall population there. It follows that its political clout is correspondingly large, though falling fast recently. Clout which it has of democratic right.
My point is that Britain has not been able to complete the separation of Church and State which is increasingly the norm in countries which consider themselves to be democracies. The very idea of Catholic or any other bishops having seats in the Dublin Senate as a right is out of the question yet for some strange reason the practice continues at Westminster.
Your point about the often malign influence of the Catholic Church on Dublin social policies is correct of course but lessening with time as the divorce referendum showed.
As for your references to the ‘dark side’ of nationalism and unionism. One definition of spirituality is the quest to find something more important than our own narrow selfish ends.
I suspect that the people who mis-used those ideals would just as quickly have mis-used any other ideals. Don’t blame the ideals for the men who hid behind them.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 12:12 PMpfhl, you’ve missed out the reference to Fitzgerald. The Papal nuncio is the Vatican ambassador to Ireland and Fitzgerald was complaining about Alibrandi’s intervention in the political affairs of the state.
In the time of John Costello the words of some government ministers portrayed the RoI as a ‘fiefdom’/province of the Vatican state.
“The Irish Prime Minister had to forgo his rights and duties as the citizen of an independent nation and as a member of a democratically elected Government in order not to violate his allegiance to his Church. “As a Catholic, I obey my Church authorities, and will continue to do so,” he declared to the members of Parliament.” There is going to be no flouting of the Bishops on Catholic morals and social teaching,” confirmed the Irish Labour Leader, Mr. William Norton. “In Ireland a conflict between the spiritual and temporal authorities is damaging to national unity,” added Mr. MacBride, the Party Leader and External Affairs Minister, brusquely ordering his Ministerial and Party colleague, Dr. Browne, to surrender his office.”
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 12:23 PMlib2016, when I used the term ‘dark side’ I was thinking mainly of the barbaric actions of the respective paramilitaries rather than of churchmen conspiring with said paramilitaries.
A few bishops in the House of Lords is small beer when set alongside the ’hotline to All Hallows‘:
“Accused of undue influence from the Church he not only failed to deny it but asserted he went looking for it – he makes the calls! In the wake of a report that exposed Church abuse and mendacity he brazenly declared the State’s almost personal affiliation to it and with such an open declaration that he more or less silenced critics. His admission of confessional allegiance exposed the fact that there is no organized force demanding a real – secular – Republic.”
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 12:41 PM
