Sunday, February 03, 2008

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1. The anthem issue is similar to GSTQ being played at Windsor Park with the soccer and Nationalists don’t turn and don’t want to even play for the team.

   How ironic that Northern Irish Nationalists who could see an All Ireland play (all be it rugby) do not turn up either as very few play rugby or until late have any interest in it.

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 05:54 PM

2. “You sad pathetic, petty, mean spirited bastards, there was a game on yesterday, apart from one or two posts about the game itself, it’s all turned into a tribal slagging match.”

   In the spirit of this thread union is not as good as league.

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 06:22 PM

3. Dave,

   I was commenting on the fact that 1 year ago I looked forward to an Ireland rugby match, now after the double standards of the IRFU were exposed in the Italy match at Ravenhill, I don’t have a rugby team that I feel I can call mine. therefore I couldn’t enjoy the game.

   If this the Ireland of equals we are being promised then I don’t really want to see more of it.

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 06:47 PM

4. WindsorRocker

   We are promised nothing and all that we want including an Ireland of equals is something we all must work towards.

   From your commentary you sound like a Northern Irish Nationalist and not wanting to attend the soccer at Windsor Park. At least the Rugby supports don’t sing the Queens a Slt

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 07:36 PM

5. In the Ireland Of Equals, 99% will equal 1%.  But it may be an exageration to say that even 1% of Irish people are excercised by the omission of GSTQ for a home game against Italy.  GSTQ will get an airing next time we entertain its owners: England.
   As for “Northern Ireland” being part of the Ireland set-up, the failed statelet is never mentioned by the IRFU as the six wee counties do not a province make.

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 08:27 PM

6. sumfoolery - “GSTQ will get an airing next time we entertain its owners: England.”

   Repeating something that is incorrect doesn’t make it true. You know perfectly well that GSTQ is the anthem for the whole of the UK but that the home nations can decide what to do in the sporting world.

   In an ironic way, you are doing Unionists a favour with your sectarian rant above. It makes people more determined to stand up against Republican bigots like yourself. The rugby row is going to run and run until the IRFU recognise that it’s not a RoI team - or NI go it alone. A separate NI team will look good on your SF IRA list of “Unionist Outreach” achievements.

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 09:43 PM

7. Ireland should drop the anthem, it cannot be good for team spirit to sing an IRA song - and it is ridciulous watching the Prods staring at their boots when it comes on - and although agreeing with the sentiment of the song myself it is a real shocker of a tune. It would be funny though if the boy Trimble or Best joined in - just to see what the uproar would be. I think Rory will get dropped next time so go on Andrew just sing a few lines.

   Dewi,

   your boys will be clear favorites for the Triple crown come the Croker showdown - should be a cracker.

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 10:21 PM

8. Turgon,

   as you have some influence on this website why dont you get our Welsh friend Dewi to do the Rugby posts for the 6N and then the Heineken cup.

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 10:27 PM

9. “I think it’s time to drop the pretence that we have a joint Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland team.” - PeaceandJustice

   If you drop that pretence, how will PSF be able to pretend to their voters that Northern Ireland has merged into the Republic of Ireland without a poll occuring to alter its actual constitutional status, thereby absolving them of the need to persuade Unionists to vote to alter the constitutional status in accordance with the PoC which they agreed should be reclassified as a principle rather than a veto under the GFA? Sorry, that would impose a terrible burden called ‘real politics’ on PSF, forcing them to actually engage with unionists as persuaders for a united Ireland, so it is far better if the constitutional issue is fudged and we all simply pretend that we are one happy wee country, having shared this and shared that on an ‘all-island’ basis as opposed to a ‘united Ireland’ basis. ;)

   Anyway, I agree with you on the principle. Northern post-nationalists recognised the legitimacy of Northern Ireland and accepted that they do not have a right to self-determination but instead have an aspiration. There can be no reverse from that position because they can’t change the status of their former right back to a right from its new status of an aspiration, as you can’t un-ring a bell. Therefore they should follow through on what they signed up to, recognising that Northern Ireland exists and will continue to exist indefinitely. So, it follows that it should have its own teams, flag, anthem, etc, which are independent of the Republic of Ireland and free from opportunistic and deceitful conflation by political hacks proffering delusion as an amenable substitute for reality.

   In short, pretending that Ulster (six counties of it) is Irish and not British when they have signed up to a binding international treaty that stipulates the opposite does not make Ulster Irish - it simply makes fools out of those who now claim otherwise.

   “The IRFU had the opportunity yesterday to redeem themselves after the Belfast game. But they refused and played the Soldier’s Song with the Republic of Ireland flag flying. For some reason they seem to think that flying the 9-county Ulster flag as well is some sort of concession. Memo to them: it’s a joint team with Northern Ireland, United Kingdom not a joint team with the Ulster branch. So like other sports where Northern Ireland are playing, they should have flown the Northern Ireland Ulster Banner.

   Of course they could have decided to be neutral and only play Ireland’s Call with the IRFU flag. But they don’t want to be neutral. Shame on those that in the IRFU who are playing politics via rugby. But it’s clear they don’t see they are doing anything wrong - as it’s a Republic of Ireland team where players from NI can play occasionally.” - PeaceandJustice

   You’re sliding off the tracks here. If, as the first sentence of your post says, there must be no obfuscation about the constitutional status of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, then why do you now call for such obfuscation? Either Northern Ireland is British and the Republic of Ireland is Irish or the issue is obfuscated.

   This is a good example of the dynamic that has been created where competing nationalisms attempt to co-exist by attempting to cancel each other out. This, of course, can never work as a solution to competing nationalism because it ignores why nationalism exists, pretending that censoring its expression is the same thing as cancelling the human dynamics that give rise to it. As a solution to an elemental dynamic, it’s a bit like prudish mothers telling post-pubescent teenagers not to do anything improper in the solitude of their bedrooms lest they go blind.

   My solution is not to obfuscate. If Unionists can’t handle Irish anthems and flags, then stay the fuck up north and don’t play for Irish teams.

   Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 10:41 PM

10. Dubliner,

    things are not always as simple as black and white or more particulalry orange and green. The GFA/STA changed the constitutional position of non iron to force cooperation with ROI and help the Unionists to realise they were Irish after all. 

    But we should not be rude - and playing an IRA song during rugby matches - just after they had to endure what they percieve as a terrorist campaign against them is bad manners.

    As Non Ironers will need a passport soon to visit Britain, ROI should be even more accomodating to our fellow countrymen at what may be a sensitive time for those who percieve themselves as British.

    Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 10:57 PM

11. Just let them have GSTQ at the internationals. If itll make unionists feel more included and respected then so be it. I personally wouldnt be singing along to it but i would stand for it out of respect. Wheres George Hook when you need him

    Posted by  on Feb 03, 2008 @ 11:44 PM

12. “In the spirit of this thread union is not as good as league”

    Wonderful Yvonne - been laughing all night - what flag do they wave in “the North” anyway?

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 08:02 AM

13. What exactly is the Northern unionist position? When it suits as in the Londonderry argument or the lack of Tricolour flags in offical public spaces even where the local majority is nationalist there is huge opposition to any display of the Tricolour, indeed up until comparatively recently it was illegal. Unionist opinion rules and no recognition is to be given to minorities even where that minority is well over 40%.

    Unfortunately when it comes to islandwide institutions even though the huge majority of us recognise the Tricolour as the national flag unionists demand recognition of their right to be a dissenting minority to the point of claiming that they have a right to have a foreign national anthem played as a reflection of Irish identity.

    ‘Ireland’s Call’ was the compromise which offered unionists an opportunity to opt out of the National Anthem. If they don’t accept the compromise they lose everything, not just in the case of this comparatively minor issue but in larger matters also. What is the matter with so many unionists that they refuse to compromise? Or maybe the question should be where are the reasonable unionists one meets in everyday life?

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 09:41 AM

14. To lib2016 - would you also call for more recognition of the Protestant minority in the RoI? They were told to conform or else. Many were burned out, murdered or had to leave because they didn’t conform.

    lib2016 - “If they don’t accept the compromise they lose everything”

    Very generous - remember, Republicans are supposed to have put away the guns. You need to get away from the mindset of holding a gun to someone and asking them to compromise.

    lib2016 - “where are the reasonable unionists one meets in everyday life?” Maybe if they know you are a Republican bigot they don’t engage in such discussions.

    Unionists having been willing for many years to associate with an Irish identity when it comes to rugby. You need to understand that the Irish identity can take different forms i.e. British-Irish as well as Irish Squared (Irish-Irish).

    You obviously want the island of Ireland team to have a Republic of Ireland identity and you don’t want to accept that the Ulster-British should have any part of it. It’s a good argument for partition as well as separate rugby teams. Thanks.

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 10:51 AM

15. Hi Eireannach Saolta,

    “Congal Claen how is Amhrán na bhFiann not the national anthem of the ROI. Show me a link explaining how it isn’t”

    Sorry this took a while, but…

    From the vote on the Appropriation Act in 1933. According to the then Minister of Finance, McEntee:

    “That a sum not exceeding £1,200 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1934, for the Acquisition by the State of Copyright in the National Anthem.
    This Estimate is introduced to give effect to an agreed settlement to copyright proceedings initiated in respect to the performance in theatres and elsewhere of the National Anthem, that is to say, the “Soldier’s Song.” As some Deputies may not be aware of the position in regard to the Anthem, I may say that the music of the “Soldier’s Song” was informally adopted by the then Government as the National Anthem for use within the State in May, 1924. On 12th July, 1926, the Executive Council formally ruled that the “Soldier’s Song” should be used as the National Anthem of An Saorstát for all purposes at home and abroad.”

    Note the use of “Soldier’s Song” when referring to the national anthem.

    More recently…Dáil Éireann - Volume 609 - 08 November, 2005 Written Answers. - National Anthem.

    “323. Mr. F. McGrath asked the Minister for Finance when the national anthem composed by Peadar Kearney in 1907 will be reclaimed and the correct words (details supplied) will be inserted at all public and State occasions. [32906/05]
    Mr. Cowen: My Department holds the copyright in the national anthem. The principal reasons for holding the copyright are to ensure that it is freely available, to prescribe that performance fees are not to be charged or collected in respect of the use of the national anthem, and to ensure that it is not used in an inappropriate context and without due deference, such as to render it an object of scorn or derision. I am satisfied that the current version of the national anthem is the appropriate and correct interpretation of the words as composed by Peadar Kearney.”

    Peadar Kearney wrote the English version ie SS.

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 11:02 AM

16. If the unionists want to claim that there is such thing as a “northern Irish” identity, eventough Malin head is more to the north. Anyway anyway, why not come up with an anthem for the 6 north-eastern counties that embraces both communities there, Carrickfergus, Danny Boy, the list is endless. WHATS THE DAMN PROBLEM WITH THAT. For the love and honour of all things good and decent will ye just do it.

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 11:12 AM

17. Hi Lib,

    “When it suits as in the Londonderry argument or the lack of Tricolour flags in offical public spaces even where the local majority is nationalist there is huge opposition to any display of the Tricolour”

    Are you suggesting that majority Prod towns in the RoI should fly the Union flag on official occasions?

    “Unfortunately when it comes to islandwide institutions even though the huge majority of us recognise the Tricolour as the national flag unionists demand recognition of their right to be a dissenting minority to the point of claiming that they have a right to have a foreign national anthem played as a reflection of Irish identity.”

    In 1918 a “huge majority” voted for the Conservative and Unionist party at the Westminster elections. However, a dissenting minority started a terrorist campaign to overturn the democratic process. Yet we’re the unreasonable community??? As you’re so reasonable and seem to think of GSTQ as “foreign” to Ireland can you explain how the British National anthem is foreign in any part of the British Isles? Irish Nationalism is the the minority in the British Isles – less than 10% You are the dissenting minority!

    “What is the matter with so many unionists that they refuse to compromise? Or maybe the question should be where are the reasonable unionists one meets in everyday life?”

    I live in NI. Here, the majority of Unionists vote for moderate parties. Over 50% of nationalists vote for the political wing of the IRA. So, maybe you should turn that question on it’s head. In the context of the current argument, where are the Unionists complaining about the British Lions changing to British and Irish Lions? Answer – thin on the ground. Yet whenever a reciprocal arrangement is asked for regarding the IRFU where are the nationalists complaining – answer – fairly thick on the ground.

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 11:21 AM

18. Ye’re hard work I tell ye. The British isles are to the east of Ireland. Grouping Ireland with the British isles would then rightly and historically be known as the European northwetern isles, or likewise the North Atlantic Archipeligo. No matter how often you say that Ireland is part of Britain and its isles will not make it so.

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 11:30 AM

19. the term ‘Anglo-Celt Islands’ is appropriate. and congal, the reason Unionists never traditionally vote for the PUP type parties is because they had no need to. the agencies of the state were their armed wing, your ‘noble’ RUC et al.
    unionisms attempts to put itself on a moral pedestal, as if in some way above nationalism in regard to choice of political parties is laughable. there was plenty ‘o wallpaper seen my boy....plenty !

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 11:40 AM

20. the solution is for the IRFU say, okay, we’ll play GSTQ next time in Belfast, and then never play in Belfast again. incidentally i don’t think they ever will play in Belfast again, or at least not in the lifetime of anyone on this board, but I can’t see them commenting on the GSTQ issue because, in truth, who cares other than a few Unionists. As for having an NI team, that’s a laugh. Ulster had two players on the team on Saturday and one of them had a mare. The best Ulster player at the moment is Tommy Bowe, and i think he’s from Monaghan so he wouldn’t qualify for an NI team. on top of that, when would an NI team play? there’s no way they’d be allowed into the 6 nations. Earth to loyalism/unionism, get real, no one cares!

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 11:55 AM

21. CC, your final sentence could have read so:

    “Yet whenever a reciprocal arrangement is asked for regarding the IRFU why are the nationalists complaining – answer – fairly thick.”

    Posted by Nevin on Feb 04, 2008 @ 12:00 PM

22. To RepublicanStones - your repeated comments about ‘wallpaper’ is dull. You know the reality but choose not to accept it i.e. the vast majority of the Police and Army were ordinary decent people doing a job. If there was so much interaction with Loyalist groups, a lot of the Sinn Fein IRA people complaining would not be around today. That’s just a fact.

    People like yourself tried to demonise the police and army so they could justify murder. That’s something people like you will have on your conscience. Deal with it instead of trying to change history.

    As regards the use of the British Isles, perhaps the RoI Government would stop using the term ‘Ireland’ as if they own the whole island i.e. if they can’t be bothered to compromise then there is no reason to stop using the geographical term, the British Isles to cover the islands of Great Britain and Ireland.

    People like ‘RepublicanStones’ and ‘Iain’ are good examples of why partition is here to stay. Thanks lads!

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 12:03 PM

23. British isles = The island of Britain and its isles. (Ireland is not a part of this, and saying and wishing it otherwise will not make it so).

    Ireland = Ireland and its isles
    Republic of Ireland = The 26 county state within Ireland
    Northern Ireland = The 6 county state within Ireland.

    Now don’t be giving yourself a coronory.

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 12:09 PM

24. Hi Mackeral,

    “Ye’re hard work I tell ye. The British isles are to the east of Ireland. Grouping Ireland with the British isles would then rightly and historically be known as the European northwetern isles, or likewise the North Atlantic Archipeligo. No matter how often you say that Ireland is part of Britain and its isles will not make it so.”

    “"European northwestern isles” came back with no hits in Google. “The North Atlantic Archipelago” when used, usually refers to the Faroe Islands.

    I’m hard work???

    Hi RepublicanStones,

    “the term ‘Anglo-Celt Islands’ is appropriate”

    However, completely unused! Not a single return from Google. Whereas, back in the real world “British Isles” returns over 30 million hits. Then when you select the images tab, guess what? Images are returned of the British Isles including the Ireland and indeed the RoI.

    “unionisms attempts to put itself on a moral pedestal, as if in some way above nationalism in regard to choice of political parties is laughable”

    The RoI was founded through Terrorism and your state agencies financed and armed the Provos. However, I don’t think you’ll find many Unionists laughing about it.

    Hi Iain,

    “the solution is for the IRFU say, okay, we’ll play GSTQ next time in Belfast, and then never play in Belfast again”

    That was the solution from the 50s. A lot of unionists suspected this. However, it was never put to the test. Then, with Lansdowne being redeveloped, Ravenhill was needed. The cat is now out of the bag now. That’s why former supporters, like WindsorRocker, feel completely let down. The squirming by the IRFU on this is ridiculous. It’s obviously wrong and should be changed.

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 12:19 PM

25. It was good they played Amhrán na bhFiann before the Ireland v Italy game at Croke because it now disproves those who claimed that the poor Irish performances at the Rugby World Cup were because this anthem isn’t played at away games.  We now know this Irish team are sh!te whatever anthems are played.

    Anyway, back to the rugby.  Total dross.  The atmosphere at Croke was as flat as a pancake and only livened by the Italian fans and the crowd booing when Eddie O’Sullivan appeared on the big screen.

    Eddie’s untouchables’ positions are becoming rapidly untenable.  Simon Easterby was miles off the pace and was a one-man penalty machine.

    D’Arcy hasn’t performed for the last year so while his arm reak is unfortunate, it does provide the opportunity for Eddie O’Sullivan to freshen up the centres with Trimble.

    However, O’Sullivan being O’Sullivan, he will probably play the unfit, out of form and out of position Shane Horgan in the centre, despite an awful performance in this position for Ireland A on Friday.

    Posted by  on Feb 04, 2008 @ 12:33 PM
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