Monday, October 02, 2006

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1. It must be a joke?  £ 8 million quid.  As for the well designed website-- as the old saying goes “ paper doesn’t refuse ink” Several comments to make both on the story as reported here and on the BBC news this evening.  Tommy Kirkham seems to think the UDA faction he represents is some sort of best practice community development organisation in waiting.  They’e just been sidetracked for a few years into murder, extortion , drug dealing and other criminal behaviour.  But it’s community development that they do best.  Please don’t make me sick.  Everything about this initiative is anti community development. As for the three areas described on the website-- Castlemara( Carrickfergus I think) , Craigyhill ( Larne) Monkstown( Newtownabbey) .  I have it on good authority that the first two benefited from funds through the Peace Programme for the employment of workers—the empowerment project in Larne subsequently collapsed with power struggles thought to contribute and in Carrickfergus I hear the UDA men there are more interested in keeping control of their areas than actually participating in genuine community activity to met local needs. One final thing.  The UDA through the 1970’ and 80’s—come on and have a trip down memory lane-- not one mention of the victims of this organisation and their families. Seems to me that Tommy Kirkham really is living in some sort of paralell reality.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 07:40 PM

2. Dread, clearly you are so content wallowing in your lazy and complacent attitudes that you could not know anything of the fine work carried out by groups such as the Finaghy Crossroads Group, North Belfast Interface Network and Suffolk-Lenadoon Interface Group, to name but a few.

   How telling that you feel so far removed from the situation that you so readily admit that you have never been part of the problem.

   How nice and cosy for you to be well away from the communities that have been torn asunder by the conflict. Pity your detatchment doesn’t prevent you from enthusiastically criticising those who are actually trying to make a difference in these areas.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 07:45 PM

3. Stewart:  “Dread, clearly you are so content wallowing in your lazy and complacent attitudes that you could not know anything of the fine work carried out by groups such as the Finaghy Crossroads Group, North Belfast Interface Network and Suffolk-Lenadoon Interface Group, to name but a few. “

   Ah, playing the man… tsk tsk tsk—cantt come up with a counter-arguement, so you must turn to insults.  Why should I get excited because the thugs decide they will cut down on their thuggery?  And what is the logic of putting moeny in the hands of the thug’s political sock-puppets?

   stewart:  “Pity your detatchment doesn’t prevent you from enthusiastically criticising those who are actually trying to make a difference in these areas. “

   I’m not detached, Stewart… I merely have a low tolerance for the absurd.  To be blunt, expecting praise and applause for what is essentially an extortion request is nonsensical.  The SE Antrim Brigade wants 8.5 million pounds for the opportunity to fix those things they have broken, with the codicil that oh, by the way, society should not expect them to quit commiting crimes right away.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 08:01 PM

4. Dread,

   The latest IMC report will note improvement and I have long since wanted them to “sub-divide” their findings into an area by area basis so that the general public can see where the problems are stemming from. But that is a side issue. I do expect a degree of praise from the IMC on the work being done on the ground but also a recognition that things are not there yet. And of course I have never claimed that they were. I have always stated that there has been progress.

   People in working class areas can well understand what I mean by “non reported” assaults. I mean the type formally carried out by paramilitaries and not reported to the PSNI for reasons of fear of further reprisals. So when I say a significant reductions in these type of assaults I mean exactly that. The proverbial dogs in the street know when this type of thing happens, they know what it is for and they acknowledge with us the need for these type of things to stop. So in a sense my own statistics are clearer than the PSNI’s. But we are splitting hairs. I can’t promise that this type of activity will stop completely as that would be foolish but I can tell you that it is discouraged, other things are looked at including not only restorative justice but utilising UPRG representatives to tackle issues such as anti social behaviour, drug abuse,etc. through honest dialogue with the people concerned. It works in 90% of cases.

   As for the £8million quid? not my plan. You would best ask Tommy where he derived that figure from.

   You do seem obsessed with the North Belfast. The BBC reported disturbances in the area and that was simply the renegade group kicking off and threatening Loyalists who wanted to remain mainstream. The gathering of supporters merely showed the renegades that beating our colleagues would be frowned upon. I repeat, not a fist was raised. Not only did we liaise with the PSNI but also a bewildered looking group of Republicans who came down to see what the fuss was about. There was no problem at all once things were explained. But this has all been discussed before so it is getting repetitive. Your ingrained mindset just wants to trot out the same old mantra that you want to believe; thugs,low life’s, Neanderthals. And by constantly treating every Loyalist as such you will make progress how exactly? Broaden your horizons and raise your spirits for there is a new day dawning.

   There will be further announcements later in the week from the mainstream.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 08:09 PM

5. Stewart,

   I know the good work being done in Finaghy and it is to their credit. They are a progressive bunch down there. These schemes are broadening out to “the sticks” and much good work is being done in Banbridge, Dromore,Ballynahinch and beyond. Long may it continue.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 08:14 PM

6. Dread,
   you are clearly labouring under the misapprehension that I am arguing in favour of Tommy and Co. getting the £8 million quid.
   I most certainly am not. However I am in favour of paramilitaries moving towards real cross-community progress such as the projects mentioned in my previous post as opposed to your type of contribution -i.e.  sniping from the sidelines from a very safe distance.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 08:21 PM

7. LHW:  “The latest IMC report will note improvement and I have long since wanted them to “sub-divide” their findings into an area by area basis so that the general public can see where the problems are stemming from.”

   IOW, you want the UDA to remain together as a movement, hence the “peaceful protest” against the Shoukris and the dismay at SE Antrim’s splinter, but judged individually when it suits your purpose?  Blowing hot and cold with the same breath has never garnered much in the way of admiration.

   LHW:  “People in working class areas can well understand what I mean by “non reported” assaults.”

   I know exactly what you meant, LHW.  I merely point out that if they “unreported,” how does one quantify them for comparison between periods?  Unless one is somehow involved with the perpetrators of said activity, I can’t imagine how its tracked.  Do you have weekly meetings where the perpetrators report their misdeeds, so they may be quantified?  A weekly staff meeting for the thugs to report their productivity of the past week?

   LHW:  “I can’t promise that this type of activity will stop completely as that would be foolish but I can tell you that it is discouraged”

   No doubt with the threat of the same sort of action that you’re seeking to discourage… ironic, isn’t it?

   LHW:  “I repeat, not a fist was raised.”

   On your word as the political mouth-piece for Loyalist paramilitaries?  This I should believe?

   LHW:  “ And by constantly treating every Loyalist as such you will make progress how exactly? Broaden your horizons and raise your spirits for there is a new day dawning. “

   I’ll believe it at sun’s rise, not before.  I’m sure the fellows from UPRG put on a good show, but they are still the sock-puppets for an organization tied to drugs, extortion and violence.  When the UDA can sing religious music in four part harmony, then I’ll start to believe they’re choirboys.

   LHW:  “There will be further announcements later in the week from the mainstream. “

   Would that be the good UDA or the bad UDA?

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 08:29 PM

8. Stewart:  “However I am in favour of paramilitaries moving towards real cross-community progress such as the projects mentioned in my previous post as opposed to your type of contribution -i.e.  sniping from the sidelines from a very safe distance. “

   Where else would one snipe from, Stewart?  Of course its done at a distance—that’s why its called sniping.

   However, what I am doing is not sniping, its pointing out the absurdity of this whole scenario.  One does not hire the crooks not to commit crimes, Stewart.

   As for who and how much, 8.5 million for Tommy’s set or the 33 million promised to Loyalist neighborhoods previously, it amounts to the same thing—paying the crooks and thugs to not be crooks and thugs.  Likewise, based on the IMC and the organized crime reports, there hasn’t been much to boast about—what was the best you came up with—some flags and a mural?

   As I said, I simply have a low tolerance for the absurd.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 08:34 PM

9. rapunsel

   “Several comments to make both on the story as reported here and on the BBC news this evening...”

   Not entirely sure what you mean there… but my opposition to both the British and Irish governments’ approach to dealing with paramilitary and criminal groups here is fairly well documented in the Slugger archives - and some of the links in the original post… lofty will, I’m sure, confirm that.

   I had tried to point out in this post how that approach was being used in this latest demand by one faction of this particular paramilitary and criminal group… [note to self - try again, fail better..]

   As for stewart’s enthusiastic endorsement of certain organisations.. as I’ve said before, the embedding of the same leaders of those groups - for some time - within communities through the application of public funds, along with political capital, and the imprimatur of both governments is definitely not a step forward.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 08:51 PM

10. Dread,
    It is reassuring to see that you still cannot see the bigger picture and that you are still obsessed with your flags and murals mantra.
    Reasearch what is actually involved in the various cross-community initiatives that I have mentioned and you will see that these amount to a lot more than your disparaging and ignorant description .

    I note your distaste at the thought of funding being given for community projects on either side of the sectarian divide.

    Better that we fund white elephants like the CRC to make you and your ilk feel that things are getting better.

    I rarely venture onto Slugger as I am too busy in the real world. The likes of you sitting here day in day out all week talking bull reminds why.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 09:00 PM

11. Dread

    The principle of danegeld was conceded long ago in the process.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 09:18 PM

12. Pete, I was going to say that I was surprised at your assertion that I enthustically endorse certain organisations but when I thought about it, I’m not really.

    What did I say earlier about lazy and complacent attitudes from the middle-classes?
    Please check back on my earlier posts and then post me back with details of where ‘I enthusiastically endorsed certain organisations.’

    What I do enthusiastically endorse is productive cross-community initiatives that impove the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to live on the interfaces. I look forward to you producing the evidence to back up your statement.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 09:25 PM

13. “What I do enthusiastically endorse is productive cross-community initiatives that impove the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to live on the interfaces.”

    You say potato..

    btw, stewart.  I realise you don’t comment often.. but Slugger’s Commenting Policy can be boiled down to a simple rule, in place to ensure as productive a discussion as possible - Play the ball, not the man.

    In other words, try to keep the discussion civil.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 09:33 PM

14. Stewart:  “It is reassuring to see that you still cannot see the bigger picture and that you are still obsessed with your flags and murals mantra.”

    They were *your* example, not mine.

    Stewart:  “I note your distaste at the thought of funding being given for community projects on either side of the sectarian divide. “

    Really, you do need to read more closely—I disparage the thought of paying for thugs to behave in a socially acceptable fashion.  Socially accpetable behavior should not have to be purchased.  It should be the norm. 

    Stewart:  “Better that we fund white elephants like the CRC to make you and your ilk feel that things are getting better. “

    Ah, but they don’t make me feel better.  As I have stated before, the trouble with Danegeld is that you seldom can get rid of the Dane.  Pay the extortionist and all you do is whet his appetite.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 11:04 PM

15. Pete,
    I note that you have failed to produce any evidence to substantiate your disgraceful slur that I enthusiastically endorse certain paramilitary groups. You have cowardly sidestepped the challenge to ‘put-upor shut-up’ by hiding behnd Slugger’s commentating policy.

    What’s the more serious issue Pete?
    Making an entirely concocted allegation against me or my being forthright in my condemnation of those who opposes attempts to reduce sectarian strife.
    It is indeed a strange set of standards that you keep. Pete.

    Posted by  on Oct 03, 2006 @ 05:56 PM

16. stewart

    I don’t mind being criticised for something I have written.. as long it is something I have written and not something I haven’t.

    You’ve now changed your accusation to claim that I asserted “[you] enthusiastically endorsed certain paramilitary groups”.  Initially you wrote - “I was surprised at your assertion that I enthustically endorse certain organisations..” - guess which is the more accurate quote?

    I try to be as exact as possible.  I’m sorry that you’ve misinterpreted my words to mean ‘certain paramilitary organisations’ - that wasn’t what I said, as I pointed out when I quoted your own comment back to you - “What I do enthusiastically endorse is productive cross-community initiatives that impove the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to live on the interfaces.”

    As I added then, you say potato..

    And, for the record, my standards are quite consistent thanks.

    They’re also well recorded here in the Slugger archives for anyone to check… including my criticism of the Finaghy group and the involvement there of Jackie McDonald, among others, as well as the Irish President.

    Posted by  on Oct 03, 2006 @ 06:23 PM

17. To all those engaged in this debate who appear entirely ignorant of conflict transformation iniatives within the constituency close to the PUP, but not PUP backed, as most of this work is community rather than politically based, read on.

    Go to http://www.linc-ncm.org/eactf.html or check out on google the East Antrim Conflict Transformation Forum which has been running for over two years, mainly based on voluntary work from community representatives and certainly not looking for £8 million.

    Hopefully this will rectify the ignorance demonstrated in his thread so far.  The initiative is well known to David Ervine who has given it support since its inception.

    Posted by  on Oct 04, 2006 @ 11:18 AM

18. Pete, I would be genuinely interested to hesr the detail of your criticims of the Finaghy (Crossroads?)group.

    Thanks

    Posted by  on Oct 04, 2006 @ 07:14 PM

19. still curious, Pete

    Posted by  on Oct 05, 2006 @ 09:15 PM
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