Wednesday, September 13, 2006
No Irish Need Apply!
That’s the neat sound bite sown into Julian Robertson’s statement on the British Labour Party’s ban on members from Northern Ireland.
Mick Fealty @ 03:46 PM
What exact form does the rule take? Does it ban NI members, or does it restrict it to GB only? For example, could someone from the 26 join? Or even from France?
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 03:58 PMWell now you know why the rest of Ireland went it’s own way . Coming from a Conservative this kind of criticism is a bit rich . I seem to remember it was a Conservative Prime Minister (Ted Heath ) who removed Northern Ireland’s local Parliament . Wonder if JR feels like apologising for that Conservative demonstration of support for the ‘Union’ ?
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 04:09 PMMy understanding is that the Labour Party reluctantly accepts members but refuses to contest elections against its ‘sister’ Party, the SDLP. This means that it’s impossible to be a Unionist Socialist in Northern Ireland - which is patently absurd. Labour enacts legislation in NI despite having ZERO electoral mandate. It also uses orders in council that are unamendable and normally un-debated. So in every respect it rules like some colonial despot.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 04:10 PMMy current understanding is as follows. It was the case up until a few years ago that you could join the Labour Party Anywhere in the world apart from NI – yes including the Republic. Under threat of legal action Labour allowed membership – and then quickly convened their National Executive Council which decreed that the members in NI would not be allowed to form constituency parties, contest elections or anything much. They weren’t even allowed to know who their fellow members in NI were.
There was a second legal action underway against this discrimination but I don’t know the current state of play.
Hain’s arrogance is surpassed only by his hypocrisyPosted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 04:15 PMGreenflag - you’ve been infected by Blairism. Apologising for the actions of others is trite!
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 04:16 PMGreenflag,
Surely removing the NI Parliament supported the Union by treating NI the same way as Scotland, England and Wales? At the time they didn’t have any devolved government.Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 04:20 PMOC,
‘At the time they didn’t have any devolved government. ‘
So what was Stormont then ? IIRC Unionists were very much aggrieved at the removal of their local ‘democratic’ Parliament ?
Jeff Peel ,
‘This means that it’s impossible to be a Unionist Socialist in Northern Ireland - which is patently absurd.’
So why can’t Unionist Socialists set up their own Party ? If they get enough votes and seats at Westminster they could ‘pressure’ their way into the Labour party ?
Bob Wilson,
‘Hain’s arrogance is surpassed only by his hypocrisy ‘
What else do you expect from colonial rule ? There is a reason why ex colonies became independent . It’s part and parcel of the historical legacy of colonialism . Hain is just being more honest about it than his predecessors .
Would you prefer a really adept suave and practised colonial hypocrite like Mayhew or Maudling or others I could mention ?
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 04:42 PMBob Wilson
Your version of events is right. The second legal action was on the question of equal rights for NI Labour members - i.e. NI membership of Labour was not “equally meaningful” to membership elsewhere in the UK and therefore discriminatory. The argument was that not allowing constituency associations to be formed was evidence of such discrimination. Seems a strong case of discrimination to me. The legal case was due to start last Winter but was postponed as Labour asked Andy McGivern to enter talks with them on how to resolve the dispute. That was 10 months ago and I suppose the lack of public announcements from McGivern mean that the talks are ongoing. I would like to know how the talks are going so if any labourmembersni are reading and know the state of play please let us know!
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 05:03 PM‘This means that it’s impossible to be a Unionist Socialist in Northern Ireland - which is patently absurd.’
Indeed. A few years ago when I was in a bad mood I emailed the SDLP to ask them if it was a fair situation. Surprisingly, the person who emailed back said that it WASN’T a nationalist party. I can’t remember his argument (which included a fair amount of sophistry) but in face of all the evidence it’s pretty hard to believe that they could even attempt to claim it!
If it wasn’t archived away somewhere I’d quote it for the humour value.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 05:08 PMWhy would you want to join a party that represents a foreign country? Would you expect any right minded Englishman to join the DUP for example? No, and likewise the Irish should have no interest in joining the Labour Party.
As for criticising Peter Hain for throwing his hat in the ring for deputy leader, why? Who can blame him? NI Secretary is THE WORST job in British Politics, just think - who could possibly enjoy working with the narrow minded political dinosaurs that you choose to elect here? Good luck to him, he has done a good job here (considering the circumstances which are out of his control)and has a good chance!
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 05:29 PMgg - that email sure would be fun to see, given that the SDLP have recently been going to extremes to paint themselves as a greener-than-green Nationalist party…
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 05:36 PMEnglish: Would you expect any right minded Englishman to join the DUP for example?
Tell that to Andrew Hunter
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4086871.stm
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 05:48 PMWhich foreign country were you referring to English? Just so we can clear that one up.
I would like to point out that there are those of us who seek to change the narrow minded views of the political dinosaurs here, but its a tough call.Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 06:17 PM“No, and likewise the Irish should have no interest in joining the Labour Party.”
English
One of the most arrogant and parochial statements you’ve come out with so far English.True socialism *should* breach national boundaries, internationalism *should* be one of its basic features. The brand on offer here, preached by the SDLP( Green Tories) and Sinn Fein/PUP (Green/Orange fascists)is not one that Messrs Marx nor Engels would recognise.
Admitedly the one on offer in the modern British Labour Party is not really the ideal I’d be 100% satisfied with, but at least it is now untainted with sectarianism.
What possible justification can you or other little English-ers give for denying people who want a route out of the stale political circus here?
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 06:31 PM‘English’ is no more English than I am.
Don’t feed the trolls.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 06:33 PMEnglish.
Using your own logic I feel compelled to ask you why an Englishman would spend so much time discussing foreign politics?
Why not lead by example and quit this site ?
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 06:37 PM“Would you expect any right minded Englishman to join the DUP for example? No, and likewise the Irish should have no interest in joining the Labour Party. “
There are many English people living in Northern Ireland and who are members of the DUP. Likewise the UUP. In Upper Bann the local UPRG spokesman is English. Numerous English people contribute to politics in the province and thousands actually live here and vote (squaddies marrying local girls, coming over from the mainland to gain employment, etc). Most of them seem very like minded and right minded to me and the vast majority, once understanding the situation here, tend to adopt a Loyalist perspective. They are force fed Gerry Adams when Northern Ireland does get mentioned on the main news so they tend to find it most enlightening when thy see things over here with their own eyes. But that is a story for another day.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 06:38 PMThe bottom line is that it is patently wrong not to allow Labour members in NI exactly the same rights as elsewhere. Full stop.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 06:53 PMIt is about time the NI Tories started to make some capital out of Hain and the Labour party.
When are they actually going to get going in Northern Ireland and have a credible presence that might make a difference in NI?
I suppose the Tory party has no cash to invest over here to mount credible campaigns and it will have to be raised locally. They will however need some stronger candidates than those fielded in recent years. One or two nice (and decent) middle class North Down types won’t hack it when the votes are counted in East and West Belfast.
I only hope they can manage it and give us a chance to vote for a party that has some prospect of holding real power.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 07:03 PMI’m English and have lived here for three years. I tend to support politicians such as Bob McCartney who are in favour of full integration. This is because I don’t rate or trust politicians of whatever hue in N.I and I have met a few during the course of my work here.
I find it uncomfortable watching the hardline rhetoric of the DUP as the Britishness they profess to be loyal to seems strangely foreign to me.
I feel could possibly support the Ulster Unionists again but only if Lady Sylvia Hermon was Leader instead of Empey who is painfully out of his depth both politically and intellectually.Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 07:07 PMOccasional Commentator
I would hardly call Andrew Hunter a “right-minded” Englishman. He is not exactly a typical English person - he is one of those that likes to believe that Britain still has an Empire.
The average “right minded” English person doesn’t understand the NI situation or care.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 08:33 PMAh, “right minded” means agreeing with your view of things?
Presumably you think that “understanding the situation” means the same?Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 08:35 PMObserver
I’m an Irish person who has lived in England for > 20 years. I’m a Republican so I don’t agree with you integrationist view.
However, I understand totally your view of local politicians and the DUP in particular.
My many English friends/colleagues of mine have nothing in common with the “loyalty/Britishness” that is demonstrated by NI Unionists (particularly the DUP).
As the journalist David McKittrick (himself an NI Protestant) has said, it’s a very conditional loyalty. When the UK govt was allowing the gerrymandering, discrimination, B Specials, UDR etc - they were incredibly loyal.
However, as soon as the UK GOVT signed that Anglo Irish agreement and really began an equality agenda for Catholics , the “loyalists” started attacking the RUC etc (with very little condemnation from the DUP in particular).
A lot of them profess loyalty to the Britsh Crown but a lot of truly loyal British people would have nothing in common with the conditional anti-Catholic loyalty of many NI Unionists.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 08:45 PMTAFKABO
I didn’t say anything about my view of things. I have lived in London for > 20 years and have an extended English family.
The point I was making was that Andrew Hunter’ s political views are not typical of an average English person any more than George Galloway’s are.
Presumably, you agree with Andrew Hunter’s views.
So that automatically makes him “right-minded” does it?Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 08:49 PMI think its a bit of a glib comment to say that the average English person doesn’t understand the NI situation or care - simply the average English person is exactly that - and does not have the personal historical experience to completely understand the NI situation just as I imagine a person from NI would find Moss Side, Tower Hamlets or Handsworth a trifle difficult to immerse themselves into. Don’t fall into the trap of assuming that a lack of understanding is also a lack of compassion.
Posted by on Sep 13, 2006 @ 08:52 PM
