Saturday, January 13, 2007
No smoke yet - Redux
Still no official word from the Sinn Féin Ard Chomhairle meeting in Dublin today, but given that they have confirmed that Gerry Adams has recommended that the Ard Fheis on policing should go ahead, and they’ve also given a date, 28th January, it’s unlikely to be rejected at this point. What will be more interesting to see is whether any motion to be proposed, and/or the support for the rule of law, will be conditional.. and whether the un-met conditions of Motion 395 are mentioned at any point.. Update Ignore the post title - Smoke spotted.. looks greyish to me
Here’s the interesting part of the official word in relation to the points I was raising
The Ard Chomhairle is proposing that an Extraordinary Ard Fheis adopts this motion and gives the Ard Chomhairle the responsibility and authority to fully implement all elements of it. The necessary context for this is the re-establishment of the political institutions and confirmation that policing and justice powers will be transferred to these institutions or when acceptable new partnership arrangements to implement the Good Friday Agreement are in place. [added emphasis]
It would be entirely wrong to allow the most negative elements of unionism a veto over republican and nationalist efforts to achieve the new beginning to policing promised in the Good Friday Agreement. Sinn Fein will not be paralysed by rejectionist elements of the DUP.
There are also those within the PSNI who are opposed to change. In this context, I have been made aware of incidents in parts of South Derry, Castlederg and County Armagh where local PSNI units are involved in trying to destabilise nationalist communities. This is entirely predictable and needs to be stopped.
As previously mentioned, the imposition of those powers without the support of the Assembly would be “a constitutional nonsense”.. even though that target date may be “a Government objective”..
Adds I’ve extended the emphasis to include the line that seems to cede responsibility for implementing the motion to the Ard Chomhairle
The Ard Chomhairle is proposing that an Extraordinary Ard Fheis adopts this motion and gives the Ard Chomhairle the responsibility and authority to fully implement all elements of it.
Pete Baker @ 07:09 PM
Chris Gaskin,
How can you claim that you have never said you will resign over policing, that is cold faced blatant lie.
You should be banned from the site for that untruth.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:24 PMStalin
Women can always have hairy underarms if they want to make a symbolic contribution....
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:25 PMHow can you claim that you have never said you will resign over policing, that is cold faced blatant lie
I never said that Maura, I suggest you read over this thread again.
Ingram lied about what I said so I posted what I actually said. It seems posting it once is not enough for some of sluggers slower readers.
Here it is again, let’s hop it’s the last time.
In relation to policing I said
<em>If Sinn Féin sign up to a police service which I could not support then I would not lend that force any semblence of legitimacy by asking others to support or join in my stead. If such a situtation arises my position would be untenable.
Posted by Chris Gaskin on Sep 23, 2006 @ 06:07 PM<em>
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:30 PMChris,
I have followed the debate on your site and from time to time on this board.
http://www.gaskinbalrog.blogspot.com/
you have repeatedly said in your comments section that policing is but one of the issues for you! you said clearly that MI5 should have no role in policing nationalist`s.
You are clearly using a prepared statement. The message you gave out was very much clearer, I not one or two others have made the same point.
I hope you can sleep with your flexible principles. You are not a Republican in my eyes. Republican do not participate in the six counties security forces.Republicans do not share a table with Hugh Orde or afternoon tea with Blair.You are one of Ger Adams flexible friends.
Shame on you for telling us you had principles.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:40 PMLooks like this thread has gone to Sh*t. Pity considering its such a pivotal event.
DesEnfant makes a good point above one that I fully support.[edited moderator]
This may be against the man but at least its for the readability of the website.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:44 PMA fortnight is a long time - what will SF and the DUP fill it with?
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:46 PMyou said clearly that MI5 should have no role in policing nationalist`s.
For a start I have never said that, I always said MI5 have no role in policing. Not just Nationalists
One lie so far from you!
The message you gave out was very much clearer, I not one or two others have made the same point.
Show me that message
I hope you can sleep with your flexible principles
My principles have never been flexible, the tactics for achieving those principles have.
You are not a Republican in my eyes
I couldn’t care less!
Republican do not participate in the six counties security forces.Republicans do not share a table with Hugh Orde or afternoon tea with Blair
I have not and will not do any of those things
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:48 PMMaura
Republicans were taking tea with British politicians from very early in the conflict. Can we have a realistic look at what the alternatives are here.
I assume you don’t advocate a return to armed struggle so the only political alternative is to boycott the institutions. But that would lead to the same kind of side-lining of republicans that happened in the past north and south.
The only other serious option is one imposed by the two governments. And that may yet happen but if it does it will be because the DUP couldn’t agree to share power not because SF couldn’t agree to policing.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:51 PMParcival
“On this day when Gordon Brown’s been on the air-waves rabbiting about Britishness, and strengthening the Union; we know what way he’s going to go, as and when he takes office, so it was perfect timing to call the AF today. Looks like the timetable will be kept to. Good.”
Don’t think we can be too optimistic. I have a feeling that theres lots of things that can hold things up. That said, I do think that things are generally moving in the direction if not at top speed.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:58 PMChris,
You seem to think it is clever to make a distinction between policing and policing nationalist`s. You know the point I was making.You have a very high opinion of youself.it is so immature and condescending.
You did say in your reply ; I always said MI5 have no role in policing.
If that is so why are you now saying you will not resign. MI5 are involved in policing, they will be working against other real active Republicans.They will be making arrests and using the police to do that for them.We are going backwards.
You know MI5 are involved in policing because you admit it youself. You are a fraud and Ger is obviously touting or its for money.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 10:59 PMPerhaps Chris may find himself drawn to a more left leaning Embryonic Republican political grouping?
Getting in on the ground floor may give Chris some seniority.
Or he could relent and support the Sinn Fein leadership in the interests of unity.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:03 PMHow have people let ‘Ingram’ lead such a potentially interesting discussion down a rabbit trail?
A very bold move from the AC, one that will provoke much discussion within the party ahead of the AF.
Very much a case of jumping first and with both feet.
DUP - the ball is firmly in your court. Their response could certainly influence the votes of some.
Game on. Over to the DUP.
(can we not ignore that Ingram troll? and discuss this without the ding dick?)
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:09 PMYou seem to think it is clever to make a distinction between policing and policing nationalist`s
This is getting REALLY boring!
You were the one who incorrectly attributed a position to me which I have never held.
Would you like me to refresh your memory as to what you wrote?
“you said clearly that MI5 should have no role in policing nationalist`s.”
I have never said that
it is so immature
You are calling me immature even though you write like a five your old? pot and kettle spring to mind.
If that is so why are you now saying you will not resign
Very simple really
I have yet to make up my mind on the policing issue, the Ard Fheis has yet to vote on it and MI5 have been removed from policing.
You are a fraud and Ger is obviously touting or its for money.
What are you one about???
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:11 PMMaura get real. Your only alternative is a road to no-where.
“other real active republicans”
you mean the carpret-right variety.Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:12 PMmark = “DUP - the ball is firmly in your court. Their response could certainly influence the votes of some.
Game on. Over to the DUP”
Mark , the ball remains in SFs court. they havent DONE ANYTHING as yet. Theyre still waffling. Lets wait til they actually do something of importance.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:19 PMLets take a look at what we have here. We have sinn fein calling a second AC in which they put for a second time round the same motion. Why? Why have two ard C to put the same motion to the same people to get the same result? the only answer which springs to mind is that they were playing to the media. a manufactured crisis. Or more distinctly ANOTHER manufactured crisis in the peace process. Its purpose, as another poster said, to keep them at the top of the media headlines, show everyone how difficult things are for them, they have manufactured threats against themselves backed up by the ruc? they have attended the funeral of a loyalist uvf guy when they dont attend funerals of murdered non provo republicans. they have called for people to hand themselves over to the ruc, and all this gets us closer to a united ireland.
maura, i agree with you, chris has given the impression, that he would resign if there was support for policing before there was a new beginning to policing. semantics chris semantics!!! whether you like it or not, the position you hold is now untenable, have the courage to stand over your convictions and do as you led people to believe-otherwise you are guilty of misleading all of us.
again that fella ingrams behaviour has taken away from debate, and ruined a perfectly good and interesting thread. will the mods allow it to continue and for how long. Why is he being allowed to do this so often? does he have something on you guys? it bloody well looks like it. For god sake make him behave or put a stop to him.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:21 PMAnyone know when the next opinion poll is due out for the north. It would be good to get a snapshot of opinions, especially on the specific question of a Dup-SF coalition. It would be nice to have some hard data on attitudes.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:24 PMWomen can always have hairy underarms if they want to make a symbolic contribution....
Khrushchev used to have a theory about a connection between avid readership of the works of Marx and Engels and the hairiness of a given woman’s pits. I told him that if he put as much effort into resolving these complex details of proletarian thought as he did into the question of growing maize in the Ukraine, we’d have emerged victorious in the cold war. Now I find myself lumbered with the unenviable task of having to rebuild the whole bloody thing from scratch. Fortunately I’ve got Peter Hain to help me.
On a more serious note, the thread seems to have deteriorated somewhat. I’m hopeful that the Ard Fheis will choose the constructive path and follow the recommendation of the party leadership. Chris, Pat, if you guys were voting in the AF what way would you go ? You say that the decisions have already been made in the local associations. Could we get some insight into what those are ?
I appreciate that leadership has lost Ard Fheis motions in the past, but this time we are talking about a matter which has been continuously in the headlines for a long, long time. I find it hard to believe that Adams would have plumped for this without believing that he would win the support at the AF, and I’m sure this goes some way to explaining at least some of the resignations we’ve seen in SF over the last while.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:24 PMChris,
It is a shame but for all your bluster you have still not answerd why you will support policing when mi5 are involved in policing? this is what you said
I always said MI5 have no role in policing.
Now, simply explain to me why you are now saying you can support the police.Because they are.
I dont want a return to violence, I want all republicans to be strong and not recognise the British. In a similar way the brave hunger strikers did.
That Chris is a real principle not a plastic one or one motivated by money.
qubol
exactly where is this going except to Stormont in a British paid role. Gordon Brown said today on TV that it is important the UK is secured and cherished.He made the obvious point about being British and about protecting the union.That sounds like we are going to london not dublin
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:27 PMGerry
I have already answered those points with Maura and Ingram, I have no intention of doing so for a third time.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:27 PMqubol by carpet rite variety republicans do you mean people like bobby sands who went to jail for burning down a store? I think that argument was well covered on this site before.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:28 PMchris gaskin, at the very least you are guilty of misleading readers. you have always given the impression if the sf leadership came out in favour of policing before a new beginning to policing you could not support it. you like the dup have reneged on what you said you would do.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:30 PM“I think that argument was well covered on this site before.”
why bring it up again then?
my point is these so-called real republicans achieve nothing and offer even less. Its a pity Maura can’t see past that.Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:32 PMgerry
For the record. It is true that Booby Sands was charged with burning a furniture store (the Balmoral Furniture Company in Dunmurry), but he was never convicted of this bombing, and at the trial the judge said there was no evidence to support the assertion that he took part in the bombing.
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:34 PMChris, Pat, if you guys were voting in the AF what way would you go ? You say that the decisions have already been made in the local associations. Could we get some insight into what those are ?
Comrade Stalin
All the Cumann around the country will not have made that decision yet, that will take place over the next few weeks.
At the moment I couldn’t see me agreeing to it, I remain to be convinced.
Maura
not answerd why you will support policing when mi5 are involved in policing?
Jesus Christ, I have already answered that. I would not support any police service that has MI4 involved with it.
explain to me why you are now saying you can support the police
That’s the thing you fail grasp, I am not saying that at all!
Please tell me how this has anything to do with money?
Posted by on Jan 13, 2007 @ 11:35 PM
