Tuesday, March 25, 2008
No role for unionists in national debate on the Union..?
I’VE been going through the bottom few entries on the daily Newshound digest, following the national debate on Britishness. It’s a debate from which Northern Ireland’s tribes could either learn from, criticise or contribute to in some way. But I found Gordon Brown’s Telegraph article today extraordinary. Despite it’s title - We must defend the Union - there is not one single mention of Northern Ireland.
It is clear he does not regard NI as part of the Union in any real or meaningful way, since there are four mentions each for Scotland, Wales and even England. As Jack Straw launches a consultation on a “statement of values that define British citizenship and on the case for a full British bill of rights and duties setting out rights and obligations for all citizens”, it is pretty clear that one part of the Union has no part to play in defining what Brown calls our “shared values”. Brown’s “bonds of belonging that make us all feel part of a wider Britain” simply do not appear to extend to Northern Ireland.
Oddly, unionist politicians have contributed very little to this debate thus far; perhaps they can cry ‘Me too!’ in the consultation, but something tells me our ‘unique status’ as a place apart means they’ll be ignored - as usual. One unionist who seems to be espousing the ‘British values’ Brown suggests is Alex Kane, who wrote recently: “There is an overwhelmingly convincing socio-economic-political-philosophical-intellectual-historical case to be made for the Union and for the constitutional and geographical integrity of the United Kingdom.
But it is a two-way process and unionists in Northern Ireland are going to have to begin to promote the case for themselves.” Kane concludes: “If the Union is to survive then we have to prove that it is a Union of benefit to everyone.” How would a unionist convince a Scot living in London that NI’s current contribution to the Union is “of benefit” to them?
Belfast Gonzo @ 01:23 PM
‘Everyone can learn from their mistakes’
Can doesn’t mean they will or even want to . Some are destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over . Eventually they call it experience . There is no profit in such repetition . Some call it the path to perdition.
‘The “full integration” proposals were in the tories 1979 election manifesto. The balance of power period immediately predated that. They were not co-terminus.’
Mrs Thatcher won a thumping majority in 1979. She opposed devolution as a matter of principle and policy . Why did’nt she implement James Molyneaux’s integration policy ?
She did’nt see it as in Britain’s longer term interest. She preferred to deal with Fitzgerald and Haughey anyway and they got more from their exchange with her than poor Molnyneaux for all his loyalty to the Union.Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 07:32 PMDec
“‘up your hole’ “
Please quote rather than misrepresent.
Plus if you bothered to read the thread you’d see it was about the full package of reform not simply around the relatively minor flag regulation.
Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 07:42 PMFD
</i>On the general issue, NI being part of the UK has everyday consequences that includes symbolry so I have no problem with it so no I have no problem with the suggestion.
There are nationalist minorities in NI, Scotland and Wales and all of participating in the various governments so . </i>
Sorry, but that’s ‘up your hole’ as far as I can see. Presumably, in the event of a United Ireland, you’ll be the first out erecting triclours.
Please quote rather than misrepresent.
Pot. Kettle. Black.:
Also Unionism can hardly be expected to stand idly by while nationalism (and its pal Bob Collins) tries to strip the place.
Ps Your casual linkage of Equality legislation and an implied ‘Pan-Nationalist Front’ takes me right back to the 80s.
Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 08:34 PMDec
My point would be that if NI Unionists entered this debate (how the Union works for them and what they’ve contributed to wider UK life), they would be bringing almost nothing of relevance (and even a few uncomfortable truths) to the table:The Union has different benefits for different parts of the UK and if they enter such debates with such a parochial outlook, then of course they’ll not make much headway on the overall question.
And I have already entered this debate on other forums; it is possible, even for Northern Irish unionists, to see the bigger picture and present coherent arguments on a UK-wide as opposed to narrow NI basis. Ironically (or not, probably thinking a bit more about it) there is much more general acceptance on such sites of my right to a dual British and Irish identity than I think I would get on here.
Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 08:43 PM“Likewise, when was the last Northerner (after TK Whittaker)..to have influence in Dublin”
Mary Patricia McAleese ? or don’t Presidents count?
Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 08:57 PM‘Mary Patricia McAleese ? or don’t Presidents count? ‘
Not in the a unionist universe they don’t . Not part of the bigger picture ye see . Queens is different .Now they count especially when they’re givin out dem purple purses :)
‘there is much more general acceptance on such sites of my right to a dual British and Irish identity than I think I would get on here’
So who is actually disputing your right to a dual identity? You are who you are .
Anyway just remember that a poltician is somebody who in the final analysis will lay down your life for his country .
Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 09:55 PM“Anyway just remember that a poltician is somebody who in the final analysis will lay down your life for his country .”
ain’t that the truth, boyos firing into barracks, often a trevor would do more damage by blowing a fart out the back of his pants,
and for what? To prove we had a war, well it was all a lie, it wasn’t worth killing anybody for
and it wasn’t a real war, it was the Mick version of the weather underground
Oh, and the IRA were defeated, by the folks who murdered Harry Holland and Frank McGreevy.
We’ve a shinner Education Minister fussin’ with her e-mail craggy Island addys as if that all that was effin’ important.
SF have copped onto a wee bit off Tammanny Hall and they think they’re big-shots,
they’re not, they’re just eejits who if they’re not watched will stuff our schools with L99 candidates.
Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 10:12 PM‘and it wasn’t a real war’
Of course not and none of the 4,000 dead are really dead :(. Their relatives , families and friends just imagined it .
‘it wasn’t worth killing anybody for’
Most wars aren’t but that does’nt prevent them. They’re mostly about bigger countries bullying smaller ones and they always have an excuse or they’ll manufacture one . They’re either bringing civilisation or the bible or democracy or the right religion or republicanism or unionism to people who don’t want it . And of course they always want the land , money , gold, resources etc .
I wouldnt be unduly harsh on Ruane . They are all locked into a no opposition sectarian carve up which no matter what is the only way politics can operate in the ‘failed’ state as long as exists in it’s present 6 county format . Don’t be too disappointed . What you have is a as good as it’s ever going to be . Mr D’Hont and HMG have seen to that.
Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 11:40 PMDC
The state should express its identity and it should do so throughout the UK. A unionist says something unionist how disgraceful of me.
“you’ll be the first out erecting triclours.”
Perhaps you’d look at my reply to CD on the topic of tricolours.
“Pot. Kettle. Black.:”
I directly quoted you. Also the statement I made about the thread is accurate. Hence:
“notes that the in-out approach to Northern Ireland of Brown’s constitutional programme”
“full inclusion in Brown’s Britishness programme”When Parnell asked a question on the issue of flags I said:
“I just knew the mention of flags would lead us into a cu-de-sac and not the main question.”“Your casual linkage of Equality legislation and an implied ‘Pan-Nationalist Front’”
Yawn.
Posted by on Mar 26, 2008 @ 11:48 PMDewi,
“Mary Patricia McAleese? Or don’t Presidents count?”
I could not possibly comment…
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 12:16 AM“Of course not and none of the 4,000 dead are really dead :(. Their relatives , families and friends just imagined it .”
Well try living in Detroit for thirty years and counting. What we had, wasn’t a war,
it was just the preamble to Harry Holand and Frank McGreevy being murdered.
G.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 12:24 AM“I wouldnt be unduly harsh on Ruane “
She is going to resign because of it. Pettigrew, Volpe and Sgro were far harder targets.
SF are looking vulnerable.
What will an audit show, how many sex offenders are in our schools? Who thought it was a good idea for sex offenders to teach our kids?
What is the point of a so-called vetting system if sex offenders are allowed to teach?
It will have to be a proper audit, no Angela Smith MP style of fake BS this time. We will find out who is teaching the kids.
I’ll stay on it until I feel better about the issue. My patrons in the USA want to do it.
So do I.
G.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 12:34 AM‘Well try living in Detroit for thirty years and counting. What we had, wasn’t a war’
Well if you compare those killed with overall population, the equivalent death toll in the states would be over 600,000 I believe.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 12:38 AMGregory - everybody’s heard you mun.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 12:40 AMIt wasn’t a real war. SF want us to think it was, but that is not true.
It was just an icky period in our history.
At least we got rid of Stormont. IRA surely did that for sure and SF got it back for us.
A outstandingly successful campaign.
Top marks
G.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 12:47 AM“Unionism’s job (apart from making NI’s current status more appealing to more of its population) is to build stronger east west links between Northern Ireland and the rest of UK.”
Feef, they’ve known that for 100 years, and they ain’t got a lot to show for it. Main problem isn’t intellectual, it’s salt water. Even their old Tory friends have read the writing on the wall and sloped off.
They’d be better off making common cause with the 1 million west Brits down south, and getting on a bus with some idea of where it’s going.
‘Cos NI unionism has run out of road.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 12:47 AM“They’d be better off making common cause with the 1 million west Brits down south, and getting on a bus with some idea of where it’s going.”
If we tell the Poles that SF had gallant allies of a pointy helmet persuasion,
we might do quite well. Ok, they were the IRB’s gallant allies, don’t lecture me, but the Shinners were close by.
I’d love to do Polish election leaflets. I’ll need a translation for my first draft.
‘SF are gay-hugging Nazis’
Go for the ball not the man, type stuff.
It’d be a laugh.
G.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 12:54 AMI’d love to see Unionist outreach to the new in-migrants - currently ain’t been a model of tolerance:
Armagh
Fermanagh
LisburnPosted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 01:15 AM‘At least we got rid of Stormont.
I recall Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath finally putting the boot in - you know the UUP’s ally and the one the UUP are hoping gets into power after the next British General Election so that they won’t do the same again if they have to ?. I have a feeling that there is no end of masochists in the sadistic faction of the UUP or vice versa .
‘the equivalent death toll in the states would be over 600,000 I believe.’
IIRC that was the total dead in the American Civil War . Mind you the Americans are much more efficient . They did in 4 years what it would have taken the Northern Ireland slouches lets see 600,000 divided by 4,000 = 125 years times 40 ( length of NI not so civil war ) = 5,000 years .
I’ve always known that Northern Ireland’s productivity was on the low side but perhaps this is one area where that actually may have been a blessing (just don’t ask me from whom )
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 01:19 AMHey Greg let’s do a deal on this Polish vote thing.
You don’t tell them about our snakin’ regard for Kaiser Bill - and we’ll keep schtum on the Stalin business.
A kind of non-aggression pact.
As a mark, or rouble, of our unholy alliance, you can translate stuff here ... http://www.poltran.com.
I use it all the time whilst texting my mistress.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 01:52 AMSo it is Poles under pressure?
I really hate to say this, I really do.
I’ve been lobbied with Polish complaints about Ms C Ruane, I’m really not joking. She is being a complete pain in my arse lately.
(generally)
Having said that most firms in NI were in breach of their agreements with the Home Office re: sector bsed employment schemes (Sheffield),
(so if they can shaft immigrants they will)
The UK needs compromised labor and SF needs to wipe its nose. The DUP are a bit ambivalent about migrants rights. I’ve had their councils ask me to go easy on the odd employer.
G.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 02:03 AM“You don’t tell them about our snakin’ regard for Kaiser Bill - and we’ll keep schtum on the Stalin business. “
I think they are trying to not get beaten up.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 02:12 AMAnd Gregory - if u r really in charge of something God help us.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 02:16 AM“You don’t tell them about our snakin’ regard for Kaiser Bill - and we’ll keep schtum on the Stalin business.”
The Bolsheviks borrowed money from the OnhE when it was under General Collins,
The Saorstat got the collateral, which I presume means it is in the hands of the Irish govt.
(That is right?)
Now, in fairness, the Kaiser, was solicited a little bit by the Ulster Unionists, before, violent men, stormed the stamp counter.
(so they’re your gallant chums)
I’m appalled that little Belgium, and millions of Polish papists, I mean people, were violated by the SF/Prussia/IRA/Ruane gang.
Being a deeply felt position.
G.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 02:18 AM“And Gregory - if u r really in charge of something God help us.”
I’m in charge of a lot, and God will probsbly help if asked. Ruane is going to lose her job. I’ll keep spending money until it is done.
There is no way SF are going to have sex offenders in schools in Ulster. Ms Ruane can go play at being Cardinal Law somewhere else.
Because the issue isn’t negotiable.
If that’s any help.
G.
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 02:28 AM
