Thursday, March 13, 2008
No respect for Irish indentity or culture
Did you guess the culprit? Yes, it is elements of the Catholic education sector in West Belfast.
As reported in today’s Andersonstown News (not online yet) at least four schools in West Belfast will be expecting pupils to attend class on St Patrick’s Day. This year the Saint’s day falls during ‘Holy Week’ and the rules say no Saints days are to be celebrated, instead there is an unofficial St Patrick’s Day on Saturday. Why unofficial? The rules say no moving a Saint’s Day. This all means the 17th is not a Holy Day of Obligation and the schools have decided to remain open.
For those who think St Patrick’s Day is about much more than religious observance (if that), who believe it is an important family occasion, a National day of importance, a day for developing and maintaining Irish identity and culture the decision has provoked outrage.
Does this raise broader questions about how the Nation celebrates identity and culture in 21st century Ireland? Is it possible to have a truly inclusive and secular National day?
(btw: my son won’t be going to school)
Mark McGregor @ 07:38 PM
CS Parnell
A bank Holiday is a day banks (and only the banks) are obliged to close. A public holiday is a day where businesses are obliged to close and/or give their staff a day off in lieu/pay them miore money.
I don’t think so. I think they are the same.
http://www.berr.gov.uk/employment/bank-public-holidays/index.html
In the nineteeth centry (and much of the 20th) working people had no rights to holiday beyond these statutory holidays as legislated for by parliament/the dail.
Yes, Parliament legislated for bank holidays (not public holidays)! (There was no Dail in the 19th century.)
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 12:49 PMSo, do you lie low and refuse to wear the shamrock and celebrate St. Patricks Day then solely because of the the drunks?
I certainly avoid town, yes. I might go out for a drive somewhere. We went to the Ulster-American Folk Park a couple of years ago, which was good.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 12:51 PMMs Wiz
But Slug’s right, St Pats isn’t a one-sided thing and never has been. If ‘marketed’ correctly it has the potential to be a wonderful all-inclusive day. And that’s something long overdue in NI.
When I was at school (which isn’t that long ago) St Malachy’s gave us St Patrick’s Day off. My friend who went to BRA generally didn’t, though I think that might have changed near the end. Unionism also had many, many years to arrange St Patrick’s Day parades in Belfast to their tastes, and never did. It might not be totally unimportant to Unionism but it has always been much, much more important on the Nationalist side. God knows I was forced to wear enough lumps
of turf on me.So no objection to anyone celebrating St Patrick’s in any fashion I want. But what i demand is simple - roughly what everywhere else on the planet has. You may deride it as “plastic” but I enjoy it minus the fights at the end, which I can happily drop. If by “inclusive” you want to suppress what makes me happy about being Irish and produce multicoloured shamrocks, then you can bugger off and ruin someone else’s day.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:21 PMBut what i demand is simple - roughly what everywhere else on the planet has. You may deride it as “plastic” but I enjoy it minus the fights at the end ...
You mean getting hammered, don’t you?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:29 PM“I certainly avoid town, yes. I might go out for a drive somewhere. We went to the Ulster-American Folk Park a couple of years ago, which was good.”
That sounds like a nice day out Willowfield, good one. Presumbably you do the same on the Twelfth then?
But regarding boozing on Paddy’s day this year, there’ll be plenty of ‘ceol agus craic’ but no hard drinking by all as Tuesday is back to work day and hang overs and work are a killer.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:37 PMwillowfield
You mean getting hammered, don’t you?
I am tee total. But I like going out with my friends and I like the atmosphere if you get somewhere good that’s busy. I don’t like the odd mini riot that I’ve seen break out at the end of the night though.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:38 PMMark, sorry for the delay in replying.
As I said, I see your point but I also see the Catholic Church’s point. You are entitled to your view, but I would be disappointed if the Catholic Church or any other Christian body did not put Holy Week, the most important week of the Christian year, ahead of any secular festival. A major feast cannot be celebrated in Holy Week; it is liturgically stupid to do so. Let’s see, Jesus rides on to Jerusalem in lowly pomp to die, and the next day, St. Patrick chases the snakes out of Ireland, before we get on to Jesus being betrayed at the Last Supper? What is this, the Christian story for Pulp Fiction fans or something?
I was talking to a (very nationalist) priest last week who was moaning about how trendy secular Taigs were happy to have benefited from the church in more difficult times but now want to put it in a cosy little box for christenings and weddings in more prosperous times. It’s slightly strong wine for my taste but he does have a point. Don’t expect a Catholic school to water down the faith to suit secular Nationalists. If you don’t like it, send your kids to Vere Foster.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:53 PMSammy,
I’m not the only parent in our family. While i’m an atheist, my wife isn’t. The compromise on schooling was she got the school of her choice and I get to provide an alternate view in a manner which doesn’t undermine the school. When my children get older hopefully they can make informed choices themselves after hearing the competing viewpoints. My problem isn’t with how churches organise their Saint Days but they fail to accept and respect the fact this day in particular has taken on a broader significance having effectively been adopted as a national and cultural day.
If the churches and schools can’t respect this aspect then I’d like to see a discussion on providing for a inclusive and/or secular day for celebrating identity and culture.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:28 PMKensei
When I was at school (which isn’t that long ago) St Malachy’s gave us St Patrick’s Day off.
That’s possibly a recent development because I’m pretty sure when I was there in the 80s, wedidn’t get a day off (unless it fell on the weekend).
I was talking to a (very nationalist) priest last week who was moaning about how trendy secular Taigs were happy to have benefited from the church in more difficult times but now want to put it in a cosy little box for christenings and weddings in more prosperous times.
Bit rich considering what the Church was covering up in that period. And exactly what does ‘benefitted from the church’ entail in presumably less-prosperous times?
Don’t expect a Catholic school to water down the faith to suit secular Nationalists.
Adapting to a more modern era shouldn’t be too much to ask. As far as I am aware First Confession is now referred to as Reconciliation.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:35 PMMy problem isn’t with how churches organise their Saint Days but they fail to accept and respect the fact this day in particular has taken on a broader significance having effectively been adopted as a national and cultural day.
No, you’re missing the point. It’s not about organising saints days, it’s about organising Holy Week. Easter is the central focus of the Christian year. The passion, death and resurrection of Christ is the central element of Christianity (not to mention the institution of the Eucharist). It may not be more important than St. Patrick’s Day for you, and that’s fair enough, but it bloody well ought to be for a Church. What you’re basically doing is asking a Catholic school to say that Catholicism should be subordinate to secular cultural demands. I’m afraid in that context the school is right.
Bit rich considering what the Church was covering up in that period. And exactly what does ‘benefitted from the church’ entail in presumably less-prosperous times?
I presume he meant in penal times, standing up for the Irish people in the 19th Century, providing an education pre-Butler Act and all that.
Bit rich considering what the Church was covering up in that period.
Dec/Kensei - when I was there in the late 80s and early 90s, we did get a day off. I remember, because I was at the Schools’ Cup Final on most of them and I wasn’t the type to go on the beak. But why, oh why, is this blog so full of St. Malachy’s old boys.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:54 PMSammy,
You are misunderstanding me. I’ve no complaints over moving the Saint’s Day or respecting Holy Week. My problem is they aren’t repecting the secular, national and culture aspects that are now part of St Patrick’s Day by making it a school day. The day, like Christmas, isn’t owned by Christians and has grown far beyond the narrow confines of religion.
I don’t want them to put a Saint’s Day in the middle of Holy Week, I want them to let my son have a day off school for reasons of family, community, culture and identity. Something any rounded school should be happy to support.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 04:04 PMDon’t be taking him into Belfast to be frightened by the teenage drunks, Mark. He’d be better off in school.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 04:13 PMBut why, oh why, is this blog so full of St. Malachy’s old boys.
It’s especially tough for Mick who went to a St Malachy’s-wannabe.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 04:14 PMYes, Parliament legislated for bank holidays (not public holidays)! (There was no Dail in the 19th century.)
Believe it or not i was aware there was no Dail in the 19th century, but as my comment explicitly referred to both 19th and 20th centuries and I have no idea if the 1871 Act of the UK Parliament is in force in RoI atm, I thought it best to include.
I discovered you are right though. In a typical piece of FCO sodomite Fenianism, 12th July is only a public holiday in Our Beloved Ulster and so OWC only gets it off by accident, wheras the Papist bank workers get 17th March off anyway.
In fact, bank holidays became public holidays because businsses were disinclined to trade on the days banks were closed.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 04:15 PMBut why, oh why, is this blog so full of St. Malachy’s old boys.
Because the feckers get everywhere. And don’t even start me on those ***** from Rathmore.
Real revolutionaries were on the Glen Road.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 04:18 PMSammy (once Catholic now lapsed and Anglican) is perfectly correct.
There is no reason why Catholic Schools even anywhere on the island of Ireland should be off on Monday 17th March 2008 unless they are off for the Easter holidays; and that is another matter.
This year, due to the date of Easter, St Patrick the Apostle of Ireland does not get celebrated on his normal day. The Bishops’ Conference in Ireland has, I believe, received permission for St Patrick to be celebrated on 15th March. Incidentally, St Joseph, foster-father of Our Blessed Lord, should be being celebrated today (14th March). So Happy St Joseph’s Day to you all.
With Easter on 23rd March, even the Feast of the Annunciation to Blessed Mary the Virgin normally celebrated on 25th March has to be put off until the next available day (the week beginning on Easter Day is also not possible for other celebrations). So the liturgical celebration of the Archangel Gabriel greeting our Blessed Lady and the conception of Our Blessed Lord in her womb will be on 31 March (and thus 16 days later than normal). Even I would not thus suggest that this year the Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord (Christmas Day) should not be transferred to 31st December 2008 - that is nine months after the Annunciation this year.
However, all of this is not really the point. Accept it. The Church says many things and most people - even purported Catholics - do not obey what is stated. Even many priests in Down & Connor do not obey what Rome says - so don’t be surprised that the laity get confused.
Perhaps the Bishop-Elect Noel Treanor will start reeducating Catholics and then start evangelising the rest of the Diocese. - and yes I do mean everyone.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 04:41 PMIt looks like the only people with a genuine reason to celebrate St Pat’s day will as usual be the directors and shareholders of Diageo plc.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 07:10 PMIt looks like the only people with a genuine reason to celebrate St Pat’s day will as usual be the directors and shareholders of Diageo plc.
http://dreamingarm.wordpress.com
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 07:14 PMMy problem is they aren’t repecting the secular, national and culture aspects that are now part of St Patrick’s Day by making it a school day.
Fair enough, as I said I do see where you are coming from. But perhaps the school/ecclesiastical authorities felt that detracts from the religious aspects of St. Patrick’s Day? In any case, I left so am not in a position to lecture anyone, but don’t be surprised or upset when a Catholic school makes Catholicism a priority.
It’s especially tough for Mick who went to a St Malachy’s-wannabe.
You bitch! ;-)
Real revolutionaries were on the Glen Road.
Yes, but why would one want to go halfway across town to some sheugh on the side of Hannahstown Hill? Bloody Andytown plastic marxists!
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 11:54 PMMy national day (St George’s day) can also coincide with Easter as it did in 2000 when it fell on Easter Sunday. As it is not a public or bank holiday (no English government to take care of such things you see!) does that mean that at such times I am celebrating on the wrong day (as far as the church is concerned anyway) and that it can fall on a day other than 23rd April?
BTW Enjoy your St Patrick’s day, whenever it is!
Posted by on Mar 15, 2008 @ 08:29 AMdoes that mean that at such times I am celebrating on the wrong day (as far as the church is concerned anyway) and that it can fall on a day other than 23rd April?
Yes, if St. George’s Day falls on Easter or the week after, it is transferred to the Monday week after Easter.
Posted by on Mar 16, 2008 @ 10:08 PMThanks Sammy. I’ll probably ignore such conventions in future though. It’s difficult enough for many of my countrymen to remember when St George’s day is most years without confusing them by changing the date-)!
Posted by on Mar 17, 2008 @ 08:00 PM
