Thursday, March 13, 2008
No respect for Irish indentity or culture
Did you guess the culprit? Yes, it is elements of the Catholic education sector in West Belfast.
As reported in today’s Andersonstown News (not online yet) at least four schools in West Belfast will be expecting pupils to attend class on St Patrick’s Day. This year the Saint’s day falls during ‘Holy Week’ and the rules say no Saints days are to be celebrated, instead there is an unofficial St Patrick’s Day on Saturday. Why unofficial? The rules say no moving a Saint’s Day. This all means the 17th is not a Holy Day of Obligation and the schools have decided to remain open.
For those who think St Patrick’s Day is about much more than religious observance (if that), who believe it is an important family occasion, a National day of importance, a day for developing and maintaining Irish identity and culture the decision has provoked outrage.
Does this raise broader questions about how the Nation celebrates identity and culture in 21st century Ireland? Is it possible to have a truly inclusive and secular National day?
(btw: my son won’t be going to school)
Mark McGregor @ 07:38 PM
I still don’t understand why any deity claimed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent is also claimed to be so petty as to demand that you worship them at all, let alone on specific days of their choosing.
One way or another, right or wrong, I’m ending up the same state: self-exclusion from this petty little Demiurge. If you believe they knew that already, they could’ve saved us all the hassle by not bothering with this existence malarky in the first place.
Guinness noster, qui in stomachus erit, sanctificetur nomen tuum.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:00 AMCant wait for the twelfth if everyones gona make paddys day in2 a republican propaganda spectacle.
What a let downPosted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:05 AMSt Patricks Day - The only cross community event event worth celebrating… if only the republican element was removed. Ah we’ll dream i suppose
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:08 AM… instead there is an unofficial St Patrick’s Day on Saturday.
No. The official St Patrick’ Day is on Saturday.
For those who think St Patrick’s Day is about much more than religious observance (if that), who believe it is an important family occasion, a National day of importance, a day for developing and maintaining Irish identity and culture …
You mean a day for going out and getting absolutely hammered? Increasingly for most people, St Patrick’s Day is a day to lie low and avoid the drunken scum out on the streets: as someone once said – “a Fenian Twelfth”.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 08:21 AM‘She was very distressed but her friend (and mine) couldn’t see what all the fuss was about.
Nevin, I’m guessing right about then you were thinking along the lines*…
Sorry dear Carlow lass, there be no mass,
I’m sorrier still this goes against thou will
If such stress is caused by this timing mess
I’m sure there’s a hex on premarital sexApologies for lowering the tone!
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 09:09 AMWillowfield:
Increasingly for most people, the Twelfth is a day to lie low and avoid the drunken scum out on the streets: as someone once said – “an Orange St Patrick’s Day”.
Happy enough?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 09:29 AMYou mean a day for going out and getting absolutely hammered? Increasingly for most people, St Patrick’s Day is a day to lie low and avoid the drunken scum out on the streets: as someone once said – “a Fenian Twelfth”.
Ah, the ubiquitous drunken fenian papist scum; for if only we upright, uptight, god fearing, clean livin’ folk were not surrounded by the perpetual scourge of our dear little old Ulster..... sniffle!
FFS, Have a Guinness, wear the green and enjoy youself! Begorrah! (What you probably do when you cheer on the NI soccer team.)Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 09:30 AMI think there is some confusion over catholic school holidays and holy days of obligation. When I was growing up catholic schools, including my own, were always closed on such days. In recent years however the school my children attend (the same school) has been open on some holy days, but with the children attending mass in school.They are closed however on Monday for St Patricks day.
I know there has been some talk in Aquinas on the Ravenhill Road at their discontent that they will be attending lessons, whilst over the wall in Ravenhill, two “non-catholic” schools will be celebrating the rugby final.
One other issue is the ongoing problem of uncoordinated holidays, which leave many parents with one child at school and the other off, which happens right throughout the year.Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 09:35 AMPaul
Increasingly for most people, the Twelfth is a day to lie low and avoid the drunken scum out on the streets: as someone once said – “an Orange St Patrick’s Day”. Happy enough?
Whooosh!
Greagoir
Ah, the ubiquitous drunken fenian papist scum; for if only we upright, uptight, god fearing, clean livin’ folk were not surrounded by the perpetual scourge of our dear little old Ulster..... sniffle!
Whoosh!
I don’t think there are many “drunken fenian papist scum” out on the Twelfth.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 09:39 AMYou’ve gotta hand it to the Romans!
Apparently the Paddys Day parade in New York is the only ‘ethnic’ parade always held on the relevant date. All others have been moved to the nearest Sunday. Moving it to the 15th this year would have given the City the precedent to move it in subsequent years and so in steps Benny and the lads in Rome and gave the New York Diocese a ‘dispensation’ to proceed on the 17th as usual! And some people wonder how that organisation has lasted two Millenia? We’re only trottin’ after them lads.
So heres to St Patrick, the first in a long line of Englishmen to add to the general havoc and hillarity of Ireland!Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 09:48 AM“I don’t think there are many “drunken fenian papist scum” out on the Twelfth.”
Na, coz “the Twalfth” is for members only. St Paddy’s Day is for all Irish folk on the island of Ireland. Else, maybe you’re not Irish then.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 09:58 AM“the first in a long line of Englishmen to add to the general havoc and hillarity of Ireland!”
English??? He’s from Banwen!
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 09:59 AMNot being native to these shores I remember my first Paddy’s Day in Belfast 8 years ago. I was a little taken aback by the mass drunkeness on what I thought would be a religiously themed day. But there was no malice in the air and I suppose it is a ‘Catholic 12th’ of sorts - but without the sectarianism. For a start the pubs are all open so you can at least go out for a drink.
I have always wondered though why St Pats isn’t a bank holiday in the North. Is this for political reasons? It’s a no-brainer surely, I mean no-one’s going to actively campaign not to have an extra day off work!
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 10:24 AMmoved to Saturday 15 March by the Vatican
So does this mean anybody celebrating St Pat on Monday are defying the Holy See and thus are really protesting against his Temporal powers?
Surely that makes them - yes “Protestants”!!
So not only is there a question about Holy Days but there is a much more fundamental issues - clelebrate St pat on Monday 17th March 2008 makes you a “prod” - bring on the sashes
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 10:25 AMGuinness noster, qui in stomachus erit, sanctificetur nomen tuum.
Great motto :-)
So, all you deathbed repenters out there - how do you feel about burning in hell because you couldn’t be arsed to go to mass on Sunday.
All this discussion has just got my dander up about the living hypocrisy that is the Catholic Church.
Of course, like all true Irishmen, if those Orange B*s start slegging I’ll be singing Faith of my Fathers like the rest of them…
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 10:33 AMI have always wondered though why St Pats isn’t a bank holiday in the North
It is a bank Holiday. Ie the banks are required to close. Due to the sectarian nature of the illegal failed and occupied entity of so-called “Northern” Ireland (aka the (temporarily) occupied black six) them uns get a public holiday for the 12th and we only get a bank holiday.
Seriously (or more seriously): thirty years ago the day was pretty much dominated by religion in catholic areas. The mass boozing is a recent phenomenon.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 10:38 AM“So not only is there a question about Holy Days but there is a much more fundamental issues - clelebrate St pat on Monday 17th March 2008 makes you a “prod” - bring on the sashes”
Indeed most Catholic folk on the island of Ireland could be described as “Protestant” for their non adherance to the Catholic canon code. To be a Catholic one must be a devout practising Catholic, obeying all the tenets and utterances of the pope. No half measures pleeze. So that excludes nearly everyone on the island. So much for god, the pope, his church and St Patrick. But at least St Patricks Day has become a day for the people to have a day off work and take a bit of pride in this little old island and her attributes on the edge of Europe, sniffle.....
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 10:45 AMSt Patricks Day is celebrated by both traditions albeit in different ways. I am surprosed to see so many people thinking its for one side only.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 10:46 AMBy the way, nothing made me feel more like a second class citizen as a child than the way in which kids TV programmes were taken off air on the 12th so we could watch a bunch of sectraian scumbags (yes, that’s what they are) parade up and down to celebrate how they were our lords and masters.
If any Irish nationalist is true to the tradition of the United Irishmen (and above all in Ulster where presbyterians were the first to rally to the flag of liberty) they would be doing all the could to ensure that St Patrick’s Day was not some mirror image of the above.
I know the fashion these days is to stick it back to the other lot as hard as they gave it to us in the past - but that’s nothing to do with creating a united Irish nation.
So endeth the homily.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 10:47 AM“If any Irish nationalist is true to the tradition of the United Irishmen (and above all in Ulster where presbyterians were the first to rally to the flag of liberty) they would be doing all the could to ensure that St Patrick’s Day was not some mirror image of the above.”
I agree. And sure it twas the Irish Presbyterians (with their streak of republicanism and independant mind) and who had settled in America that started the St. Patricks Day parades and celebrations.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 10:52 AMGreagoir
Na, coz “the Twalfth” is for members only. St Paddy’s Day is for all Irish folk on the island of Ireland. Else, maybe you’re not Irish then.
That’s how it should be, and used to be, but – as I said – the drunks are increasingly spoiling it for many people – so perhaps it’s becoming a day for all Irish drunks on the island?
Ms Wiz
I have always wondered though why St Pats isn’t a bank holiday in the North. Is this for political reasons? It’s a no-brainer surely, I mean no-one’s going to actively campaign not to have an extra day off work!
I thought it was a bank holiday?
ulidian
moved to Saturday 15 March by the Vatican So does this mean anybody celebrating St Pat on Monday are defying the Holy See and thus are really protesting against his Temporal powers? Surely that makes them - yes “Protestants”!!
It’s moved in the Church of Ireland calendar, too.
CS Parnell
Due to the sectarian nature of the illegal failed and occupied entity of so-called “Northern” Ireland (aka the (temporarily) occupied black six) them uns get a public holiday for the 12th and we only get a bank holiday.
What’s the difference between a bank holiday and a public holiday?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 11:34 AMA bank Holiday is a day banks (and only the banks) are obliged to close. A public holiday is a day where businesses are obliged to close and/or give their staff a day off in lieu/pay them miore money.
In the nineteeth centry (and much of the 20th) working people had no rights to holiday beyond these statutory holidays as legislated for by parliament/the dail.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 11:45 AM“Sorry dear Carlow lass, there be no mass,”
Is this a Devon dialect, smcgiff? :)
The ‘hex-sex’ reference reminds me of a decision taken by Presbyterian elders in North Antrim a few generations back. A couple were married in their church, a baby arrived a few months early, so they were hauled before the church court and found guilty of prenuptial fornication. I don’t know what the sentence was in this case but in other cases offenders had to sit (in shame) at the front of the congregation for three successive Sunday services.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 11:45 AM“That’s how it should be, and used to be, but – as I said – the drunks are increasingly spoiling it for many people – so perhaps it’s becoming a day for all Irish drunks on the island?”
So, do you lie low and refuse to wear the shamrock and celebrate St. Patricks Day then solely because of the the drunks?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 11:48 AMYes I thought it was a bank holiday but there seems to be some ambivilence about its observance.
I used to work in a catholic secondary until a couple of years ago and the school was always closed for St Pats, even if it fell at the weekend. I work in a state school now and what seems to happen is for an INSET day to quietly arranged on St Pats, or if it falls at the weekend as it has in the last few years, simply ignore it.
But Slug’s right, St Pats isn’t a one-sided thing and never has been. If ‘marketed’ correctly it has the potential to be a wonderful all-inclusive day. And that’s something long overdue in NI.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 11:58 AM
