Wednesday, April 11, 2007
No go areas or events?
Sinn Fein Councillor Peter Anderson has questioned a police presence at an unnotified parade by dissident republicans. A gang of youths attacked police with bricks and petrol bombs. He said:
The question has to be asked, however, what were the police doing at a republican commemoration in a republican area.
Fair Deal @ 02:40 PM
Soupy: “They were gathering at the gates of a cemetery to hold a commemoration within the cemetery. “
And, per the article, the police rover was simply present. Now, I’m not sure how it is where you are, but police patrol through neighborhoods do happen, even near graveyards.
Also to quote the article:
“The parade was organised the 32 County Sovereignty Movement, the political wing of the Real IRA.”
Now, we can quibble about whether it was a parade or simply a mess of folks walking along in unison, but that would seem to be splitting hairs.
Soupy: “This doesn’t seem like an event that needs policed, just as other rememberances in cemeteries don’t need policed or protests. “
Sure they don’t… petrol bombs being a simple fashion accessory to this set…
Soupy: “However, whatever the reason behind deciding to ‘police’ remembering the dead in a legal manner the response was unjustified and completely wrong. “
I don’t personally consider a police car within line of sight to be a “provocation,” Soupy. The fact that these hoods had petrol bombs on this “solemn rememberance” suggests that they were looking for trouble to begin with, does it not?
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:08 PMEnough excuses lads and lasses. No sale.
Anderson fucked up, end of. if you don’y like the brave new NI arranged by the DUP & SF don’t vote for either.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:11 PMnickyg: “If Sinn Fein decided to show up and picket these “Loyalist obnoxious gatherings” in thier (sic) own areas.. perhaps that would be a better comparison?”
Not really. What we have, if the article is to be believed, is a collection of 25 to 30 goombahs, armed with petrol bombs, who decided they wanted to take down a police land-rover. Hint—if I am “policing” 30 or so hoods, I don’t send a single car.
nickyg: “That’s teh (sic) flipsid(sic), like it or not. Play your staraight(sic) as a die, law and order this and that approach all you like, just keep burying your head in the sand as to the incendiary nature of northern politics. Hint, it’s caused a bit of bother over the decades. “
Simply allowing the dissidents and Loyalists their own way, free of the strictures of civil society, is not a recipe for improvement. Quite the opposite, in fact.
nickyg: “Therefore it is highly questionable in terms of effective tactics, for the PSNI to fan the flames. “
So, what are you saying, nicky—any group of thugs armed with home-made incendiaries are free from the strictures of the law?
Better to sort out those dead-enders who have figured out their day has passed than to let them live the delusion they are still relevant. As demonstrated lately, they are unelectable, lacking support even in those areas they claim as their own.
nickyg: “It seems that if political policing is to be indulged in, there is a worrying trend towards the politically mischevious throwing of a spanner in the works,”
One has to wonder about the sort of person who considers a petrol bomb a “mischevious spanner in the works…
nickyg: “There’s no harm in “putting the manners on the police” when they seem to be at something questionable. “
See above.
One calls the ombudsman when the police do “something questionable.” Tossing a few petrol bombs, on the other hand, is a less than constructive response…
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:19 PMDread..
In my opinion, SF are the real losers here, hence the exasperation from them.
In trying to bring Republicans along as a unit and limit the effectiveness of small dissident groups, every obnoxious policing move undoes hours of debate. Again, I repeat, it is my belief that there are those “dissidents” within the PSNI who would love nothing better than to throw the odd spanner in the works and, as I said, give the odd metaphorical sneaky nip.
So Anderson chose his words clumsily, but the sentiment is correct. If the PSNI are adopting clumsy and questionable tactics, then they deserve to be called on it.
I think it’s a tad disingenious to make the argument about disabusing them early etc, as the whole point of the exercise has been to see dissident opinion fade into obscurity with success on the ground. Similarly, it’s a tad gormless to pretend this whole process of conciliation is anything other than one gigantic, coordinated balancing act by all concerned parties. Saying it’s just a law and order approach and no more is being wilfully disingenious.
Quite simply, that some in the PSNI are evidently intent to tip the balance now and then, tells me that the odd (now famous) “bad apple” remains alive and kicking and willing to make counter productive decisions.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:20 PMSorry NickyG - your 5:58 is so badly constructed as to be incomprehensible. Let me guess - you weren’t a very regular attender at the ole’ reading/writing/spelling classes. That said, the following gem couldn’t be ignored.
“....as I almost certainly contribute more tax to “northern society” than your good self...”
Oh dear - vulgar as well as illiterate. If it’s any consolation (and apologies other Sluggers for stooping to this level but, hey, he started it) - I’d doubt you pay more tax then me - I paid over £300k last year.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:25 PMJust as a matter of interest where did the Derry lads get the bricks from as we could do with a new supply around here?!
Wicksie
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:29 PMyou also misconstrued me (deliberately?).. the spanner throwing, so to speak, i refered to seems to be coming from some in the PSNI. tt was not a reference to the throwing of petrol bombs. I trust this wasn’t deliberate twisting on your part.
Quite simply, I’m saying this: Stormontgate, Northern bank evidence thrown out, election day arrests and a decision (probably localised, I’d imagine) to seemingly antagonise dissidents and give them an oxygen boost. If there’s going to be politically nuanced direction being taken in relation to policing decisions, they are certainly showing a trend towards the destructive rather than constructive. Of course, I will stand corrected should the version of the 1 landrover and a pre prepeared arsenal be proven correct, but my assertion of the posibility of a sinister agenda from some within the PSNI remains pertinent, and in my opinion, probable.
That deserves to be challenged.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:35 PMnickyg: “In my opinion, SF are the real losers here, hence the exasperation from them. “
I agree with your conclusion, if not your theory of said conclusion.
I think SF loses this one due to Anderson’s reflexive regurgitation of the same old same old.
nickyg: “it is my belief that there are those “dissidents” within the PSNI who would love nothing better than to throw the odd spanner in the works and, as I said, give the odd metaphorical sneaky nip. “
Maybe, but I don’t think that this is the case in this instance. Also, I would point out the possession of petrol bombs on this “solemn rememberance” suggests that these thugs were looking for something more than a prayer and laying wreath.
nickyg: “So Anderson chose his words clumsily, but the sentiment is correct. If the PSNI are adopting clumsy and questionable tactics, then they deserve to be called on it. “
No, they’re not. First of all, I can say that I believe the “marchers” were laying for trouble—honest men don’t go to a memorial service with a molotov cocktail in their pocket—what is the purpose—torch a hearse on the way out? Second, given the atmosphere, I would say it was far more stupid of the dissidents to pick a fight with the police. This sort of patch-guarding and chest thumping is reminiscent of Loyalist gangsters.
nickyg: “I think it’s a tad disingenious to make the argument about disabusing them early etc, as the whole point of the exercise has been to see dissident opinion fade into obscurity with success on the ground.”
And how, pray tell, are they to succeed in maintaining law and order if they permit armed thugs a free pass at every opportunity, nickyg? These hoods are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Its better to sort them out earlier rather than later.
The hoods came looking for trouble, as evidenced by their bombs.
The problem with a child with a hammer is that everything looks like a nail.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:41 PMnickyg: “Stormontgate, Northern bank evidence thrown out, election day arrests and a decision (probably localised, I’d imagine) to seemingly antagonise dissidents and give them an oxygen boost.”
Actually, those aided SF far more than the hoods on the street, nicky. One wonders if “dissident,” in the Republican lexicon, is a euphemism for “those who wanted to keep their rackets and guns intact.”
nickyg: “If there’s going to be politically nuanced direction being taken in relation to policing decisions, they are certainly showing a trend towards the destructive rather than constructive.”
I don’t want political policing at all, nuanced or otherwise, nicky—I want thugs, regardless of political or religious preference, removed.
nickyg: “Of course, I will stand corrected should the version of the 1 landrover and a pre prepeared arsenal be proven correct, but my assertion of the posibility of a sinister agenda from some within the PSNI remains pertinent, and in my opinion, probable. “
I leave you to your tin-foil, then…
Hint: just where did the petrol bombs come from, if all they were going to do is walk from the grave to the memorial? What do they take with them when they go to the pub, mortar bombs?
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:46 PMBemused..
Have you ever seen A Few Good Men?
Conversing with you is somewhat remniscent of the scene..
Kaffee: Colonel Jessup, did you order the code red?!
Judge: You don’t have to answer that question!
Jessep: I’ll answer the question. You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I’m entitled.
Jessep: You want answers?!
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can’t handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You?! You, Lieutenant Weinberg?! I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said, “Thank you,” and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to! (There may also have been some jibe about a post at 5:58pm and going to school in the original script)..
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?
Jessep: I did the job I was sent to do--
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?!
Jessep: YOU’RE GODDAMN RIGHT I PAID £300K IN TAXES LAST YEAR!;-)
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 05:52 PMBemused if you PERSONALLY paid that kind of tax (not your company) then you either need a better accountant,the Revenue are clawing it all back after years of underpayment..or I might actually know who you are.....
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 06:03 PMI wonder if Cllr Anderson is anything to Martina Anderson...anyone know?
As for the police being at an un notifed parade in a republican area, get ta fuck...they were most likely on a regular patrol in Northern Irelands second city when some steeks full of the zeal of Pearse and others and eager to show off to eachother starts pelting the police. No big mystery.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 06:05 PMAgain an exposé of a view held by far too many in Sinn Féin.
The law applies equally everywhere, to everyone.
There can be no such thing as a “Republican area”. The very division that implies is an ethnic nationalist notion, not a true republican one. Real republicans recognize that we are all equal under the law in all locations.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 06:18 PMOn a legal note lack of notification of a parade does not automatically make it illegal.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 06:22 PMDread..
for you to suggest that SF being guilty until proven innocent on the Northern Bank, Stormontgate etc was beneficial to them makes me wonder if you are going to be offering me your very own well worn tin foil hat. :-o
If the inconsistencies and agendas are subsequently exposed, perhaps, but the original damage can never be erased.
I’m not a big fan of this taking excerpts from posts and making pointed replies to particular paragraphs, ignoring the context or continuum of the sentiment expressed.
Of course, Anderson may have been clumsy in his verbage, but I think you will agree that his sentiments are more reflective of his highlighting the possibility of mischevious policing, and attempting on the eother hand to not make the fatal error of marginalising that dissident opinion which can still be won. This, rather than the alternative which many in this society would gleefully sieze upon: that this shows SF are unreconstructed, unfit for sharing power. This thread is a case in point.
I did say I will stand corrected if your version of events proves correct, though I doubt it’s as simplistic as you make out. As a Republican, with regards taking the official line: once bitten and all that.
Listen, I am in opposition to the fruitlessness of the dissidents arguments. It is exasperating to see elements (and not just in the PSNI) fanning the embers of a debate which SF has hard won (imo). That is the crux of the matter for me.
For you to seemingly peddle the “law and order” line without recognising that there MUST be a nnuanced approach in these transitional times, is not really tenable.
I agreee, there is a time when that must kick in, but, as long as dissidents have the evidence that there are destructive elements at play within the system, they are always going to be able to cling to a shred of legitimacy in opposing that. Remove that, which is what I am after, and that crutch is gone. Surely we can learn from our own history here, from The Easter Rising, the anti treatyites, throught to the current “troubles?”
So, Anderson:
Calling for No Go areas again? NoPeed off at the possibility that elements in the Police may be working to old agendas? Possibly
Attempting to balance and prevent Dissident waverers from turning their back on SF completely? Probably
The usual suspects siezing on this with venomous zeal in order to give lifeblood to their faltering desire for exclusion? Definately
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 06:38 PMnickyg: “for you to suggest that SF being guilty until proven innocent on the Northern Bank, Stormontgate etc was beneficial to them makes me wonder if you are going to be offering me your very own well worn tin foil hat. :-o “
ROFL…
The ultimate failure of these events were (and may continue to be) more beneficial to SF, in the long run, than the events themselves were detrimental. They do still tell the fable about the boy who cried wolf, do they not? Or have they neglected the classics?
nickyg: “Of course, Anderson may have been clumsy in his verbage, but I think you will agree that his sentiments are more reflective of his highlighting the possibility of mischevious policing, “
No, I wouldn’t. He came off sounding like just another hoodlum claiming his patch of turf.
nickyg: “This, rather than the alternative which many in this society would gleefully sieze upon: that this shows SF are unreconstructed, unfit for sharing power.”
No, it shows that Anderson regurgitates the old lines on command, like one of Pavlov’s dogs salivating when the bell rings.
nickyg: “I did say I will stand corrected if your version of events proves correct, though I doubt it’s as simplistic as you make out. As a Republican, with regards taking the official line: once bitten and all that. “
Think it through, nickyg. Where did the get the bombs, if not having them with them? Are you suggesting the police politely waited for them to scavenge the necessary components?
nickyg: “I am in opposition to the fruitlessness of the dissidents arguments.”
And yet you sit here and applaud their behavior, absolving the hoods of guilt in their actions.
nickyg: “For you to seemingly peddle the “law and order” line without recognising that there MUST be a nnuanced approach in these transitional times, is not really tenable”
Political policing is how we ended up here in the first place. What we need is one law, period. To proclaim that that area is a “Republican area” is the antithesis of honest Republicanism. Let the hoods either stand down or be arrested.
nickyg: “I agreee, there is a time when that must kick in, but, as long as dissidents have the evidence that there are destructive elements at play within the system”
Bootstrap levitation—your argument allows the dissidents to cause mayhem, which you applaud and absolve them of guilt, and then claim it as evidence. We’ve had enough of this sort of merry-go-round logic. The less tolerance there is for the dissidents and their “bull-in-china-shop” behavior, the sooner they will dry up and fade away.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 06:55 PM“The question has to be asked, however, what were the police doing at a republican commemoration in a republican area.”
They might have been making the point that it is their job to keep the peace and both communities have now signed up to this.We are suddenly ruled by law and democratically accountable authority rather than the arbitary powers of paramillitary thugs: an almost civilized society.
Them then getting attacked by an armed mob while an SF councilor tuts about their insensitive invasion of Republican turf adds a touch of comic opera to the whole policing deal.Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 06:58 PMMeanwhile:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6546693.stm
What does the new establishment have to say about this, and what can / will it do? Blame “themmums” and tell the cops to stay away?
Anywhere else, the clocks going forward and a hint of blue skies and warmth is a cause for optimism. But here!!! ....
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 07:43 PMGavBelfast: “What does the new establishment have to say about this, and what can / will it do? Blame “themmums” and tell the cops to stay away? “
To give the wholly consistant answer, seeing as I am getting a trencher’s worth of shite on each thread, the loud-mouth who felt the need to regurgitate the same old same old should make himself scarce for a while and unlearn his apparent reflexive jingoistic comments.
There should be one law. There should be one process. Frankly, if any group cannot fufill their obligations to the community, vis-a-vis a parade, then they should not be allowed to parade. If they choose to force the issue and parade without the proper notification, then they should be subject to the penalties of the law. This should occur regardless of political allegience or creed.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 07:51 PMNickyG - nice one.
Yokel - i paid it personally and my accountant is superb - I’m intrigued that you think you know who I am.Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 07:59 PM“On a legal note lack of notification of a parade does not automatically make it illegal.
Posted by fair_deal on Apr 11, 2007 @ 07:22 PM”
Certainly FD, but it surely gives police a clear basis for attending?
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 08:02 PM“Perhaps they were policing it.” - Ziznivy
Or perhaps the Securocrats were trying to disenfranchise the community and destroy the peace process with their whataboutery.
:P
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 08:43 PMDissident republicans, Orangemen, UFF, Red Hand Commandos directing traffic or obstructing it? No thanks.
The police can attend any gathering they like thanks, and should attend every illegal parade.
Sinn Fein should tell their members that it is no longer necessary to selectively excuse stone throwers on the basis of their religion.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 08:49 PMThis really sums it up for me:
‘A spokesperson for the 32 County Sovereignty Movement claimed that republicans attending the commemoration had been “goaded” by the police.
“The police were sitting there and they goaded the young people who were standing watching. If the police are going to sit in landrovers in the middle of Creggan at a republican parade then this was always going to happen,” he said.’
Police sit in a (singular)land rover, observing the political wing of the RIRA (a terrorist group who carried out the Omagh bombing by the way). Youths feel so aggrieved and goaded by this they get out their petrol bombs (handy) and fire bomb the police.
Verdict - its the peelers fault. Always going to happen if police SIT and by doing so GOAD the locals (with their petrol bombs)
What fucking planet do some people live on?
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 09:29 PMA footnote to all of this.
Can someone explain why the Sinn Fein Easter Parade at Stranorlar in Donegal, addressed by Martin McGuinness, was fronted by a colour party of young gents in the traditional paramilitary attire of black leather jackets and matching berets. I thought the “war” was over.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2007 @ 09:41 PM
