Wednesday, November 30, 2005
New Parades Commission members
Once again the BBC pre-empts an official announcment, expected tomorrow, to report that the new Parades Commission Chairman, taking the place of Sir Anthony Holland, is to be Roger Poole, a former trade unionist who was involved in the formation of Unison. In addition they report that a former candidate for the Woman’s Coalition, Ann Monaghan, has also been appointed to the Commission, along with two other women, out of a total membership of six commissioners and a chairman. As the Press Association, via UTV, also report, one of the new commissioners is the former District Master of Portadown Orange Lodge, David Burrows
Also named as new members of the Parades Commission in the BBC report are -
Don McKay, who in the past stood as an Ulster Unionist for Craigavon Borough Council, has also been appointed, as has former SDLP MP Joe Hendron.
Which leaves 2 commissioners still to be named.
Update Vilma Patterson and Alison Scott-McKinley have also been appointed to the body.
And Secretary of State for Wales and Northern Ireland, Peter Hain, has issued a statement - “I am particularly pleased that two people with personal understanding and experience of the Orange Order and the cultural importance of parades have been appointed to the Commission.”
Here are the brief biographies of the new commissioners, as provided by the NIO -
Brief summary of appointees’ career
Mr Roger Poole: Currently a director of Social Enterprise London and Business Link for London. He is also a visiting fellow at Warwick University.
Roger Poole has had a long career in Trade Union movement and was the former Assistant General Secretary of NUPE and of UNISON. He was responsible for national negotiations in the NHS, Local Government, Water Industry and Higher Education. The public face of the ambulance dispute of 1989/90, he was the Chief Union negotiator and frequently appeared on the media. He was one of the senior trade union officials responsible for negotiating the terms of the merger between NUPE, COHSE and NALGO to create UNISON. In 1999 he joined the team which had been established by the Prime Minister to look at the future of the Co-operative movement.
Mr David Burrows: In engineering management for the past 10 years. He was also a district officer for Portadown LOL No.1 for over 10 years and served as District Master resigning in July 2005. He has a certificate in marshalling and was involved in Drumcree negotiations over the years.
Dr Joe Hendron: A GP for 40 years, Dr Hendron was an SDLP MP for West Belfast, from 1992-97. As an MLA, he chaired the Assembly’s Health and Social Services Committee. He visited North Korea in 1998 as part of a Trocaire charity delegation looking at famine.
Mr Donald MacKay: A senior fire officer in the Fire Service for 26 years. Mr MacKay was also a local councillor in Craigavon for four years (1993-97). He is a member of the Royal Black and Orange Institution (member of Portadown ex-servicemens Orange Lodge). Mr MacKay holds a variety of personnel and management qualifications from a BA (Hons) in Business Studies through to an MA in Human Resources.
Ms Anne Monaghan: A Community Relations Manager in the University of Ulster since 2001. She has an MA in Peace and Conflict studies from University of Notre Dame, Indiana and an LLB in law and politics from Queen’s University Belfast. She is now an Independent member for Belfast’s District Policing Partnership.
Mrs Vilma Patterson: Has spent 20 years as the Finance and Administration Director at a company called John G Duff (Annadale) Ltd, a sports ground contractor. She is currently a member of the Independent Monitoring Board for HMP Maghaberry (for nine years) and Chair of Northern Ireland Association of members of Independent Monitoring Board (for three years). She is also the former Chair of the Women in Business Network.
Mrs Alison Scott-McKinley: Currently employed as Urban Area Development Officer in the Magherafelt area since 2004. She was previously employed by Portadown YMCA as a Family Youth Work Development Worker. Formerly an independent member of Magherafelt District Policing Partnership from 2002-05, she has also been a Lay Magistrate since 2005.
Pete Baker @ 05:03 PM
“BB,
How many hundreds of years ago was this? Time to move on me thinks, by looking forward and not back.But to humour you I will address your point. Am I not right in saying that Cromwell came over AFTER Roman Catholics committed the first ever sectarian killings in Ireland, murdering thousands of Protestant “heretics” at Portadown (I believe the figure was 30-40,000), by burning, drowning and/or butchering them?
I’m not saying I believe in an “eye for an eye”, but before Cromwell came over from the Irish Sea, Protestants here were the persecuted, repressed peoople…”
You mean the Protestants who had ethnically-cleansed the Irish Catholics from lands in Ulster? Is it really such a surprise that having done something like this that it was going to generate massive hatreds, especially in those times?
And you are seriously deluded if you think they were the “first ever sectarian killings in Ireland”. In 1579, the Earl of Essex, Walter Devereuz, and Sir Francis Drake slaughtered the entire population of Rathlin Island (700). Children were chased into caves and cut to pieces. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9033054
The Irish Catholic’s did not start the sectarian killings. It was the brutal way in which English and British governments tried to impose their ways on us by killing us, driving us from our lands, denying us the vote, the right to buy property etc. that created the hatred which led to massacrsws in 1641. 1641 was not unprovoked, and to claim those who were killed were killed merely because they were Protestants is to demonstrate selective amnesia about the events - most notably the Plantation - that preceded it. 1641 also needs to be seen in the context of the 17th century where this sort of carry on was going on all over Europe.
Even so, just as placing the Massacre of St.Bartholomew’s Day on banners for a Catholic march through Protestant parts of France would be in extremely poor taste, Loyalists should remove Cromwell from their banners if they want fewer Catholic objections to their marches.
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 06:31 PMAt least we can console ourselves safe in the knowledge that, when the new Orange- sorry Parades- Commission gives the Drumcree go-ahead, the PSNI will not move to shift residents from blocking the road- after all, this was the course of action (or rather inaction) on the Springfield in September, wasn’t it?
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 06:56 PMPosted by Pete Baker on Dec 01, 2005 @ 12:19 AM
*…Seriously guys, this is becoming boring. Take issue with what I say if you want, but leave your own prejudice at home. *Seriously Pete, if you tire of all this slugger work I think I might have found a job for you…..
* Washington 30 Nov ‘05: The US military offered a mixed message yesterday about whether it embraced one of its own programs that reportedly paid a consulting firm and Iraqi newspapers to plant favorable stories about the war and the rebuilding effort. Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, a military spokesman in Iraq, said the program is “an important part of countering misinformation in the news by insurgents.” Details about the program were first reported by the Los Angeles Times.*
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 07:12 PMA Beeb announcement:
further to continuing soccer hooliganism (see the link below) Westminster has set up a committee to look into the issue. It will be led by a trade unionist. He’ll be assisted by a very nice lady and a leading member of the Millwall ‘Inter City Firm’ hooligans. This announcement agrees with Pete Baker’s reporting format and that of Pravda and therefore can be considered to be gospel. If you disagree you’ll be dismissed as prejudiced.http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/4478578.stm
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 07:32 PMirishman
The PSNI have charged a number of people involved in the protests to which you refer.
The PSNI were hardly lacking in action when they had over 2000 personnel to enforce the PC determination and fired over 400 plastic bullets on the Springfield and West Circular Road.
I’d also appreciate a response to this comment in your earlier post.
“I confidently predict this commission will blow this place apart next summer. “
I trust you are not suggesting there will be nationalist violence against Parades commission decisions after all every nationalist contributor on here went boogaloo over such activities around the Whiterock parade.
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 08:26 PMBB: With the best will in the world “ killing US, driving US from OUR lands, denying US the vote” conjures up an image of solidarity with groups of people long gone which isnt terribly plausible. The reality is that WE, alive now in 2005, dont have a lot in common with those people or those times. I try to resist using “us” in that sense b/c I simply feel that each generation stands alone and has its own problems to face - and sort out. Im not talking to you specifically, cept in the sense that you use that language, but I feel that continuous association with the past hasnt really got us terribly far, has it?
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 09:01 PMFair deal
There has yet to be a single case brought against the so-called ‘women and children’ brigade who were permitted to block roads at will during the September period.
As to my reference to potential violence, in the event of a Drumcree decision going the way of the Orangemen, I have absolutely no problem speculating as to the outcome of such a course of action- widespread violence would be immediate, and the PSNI’s reputation would fall just as quickly as the SDLP who are currently propping them up.
As for Peter Hain’s Derry parade model, that would be consigned to history; for it is obvious to any rational observer that events elsewhere will have a dramatic and instant effect in the city.
I personally believe that nationalists should have no truck with this commission until the British government evens up the numbers with appointees from a Resident’s Group background.
There is a precedent for this: Tommy Cheevers was a late appointee to the last Parades Commission after unionist whingeing- time to return the serve!
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 09:36 PMirishman: I have absolutely no problem speculating as to the outcome of such a course of action- widespread violence would be immediate, and the PSNI’s reputation would fall just as quickly as the SDLP who are currently propping them up.
Let’s get this straight - are you predicting that nationalists will initiate violence to oppose a parades commission ruling, and the PSNI will get the blame?
Then who deserves the blame when unionists use violence to oppose a parades commission ruling?
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 10:01 PMReader
That’s an easy one: unionists who initiate a parade with the sole intention of provoking a sectarian confrontation by trampling through a nationalist area are in no way comparable to those who seek not to offend, but to not be offended.
Put simply: I’d expect a violent reaction from unionists were republicans to march from Ardoyne, across the West Circular to West Belfast. So why can’t you accept the inevitability of a similar outcome when loyalists march in nationalist areas???
Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 11:06 PM“There has yet to be a single case brought against the so-called ‘women and children’ brigade who were permitted to block roads at will during the September period.”
Wrong. I know a number of people who have been charged and cautioned by the PSNI in East belfast, Dunmurry and wesy Belfast.
“widespread violence would be immediate”
So all the moral outrage about the Whiterock parade was hypocritical bollocks then ok.
“for Peter Hain’s Derry parade model, that would be consigned to history”
1. The model predates Hain’s appointment by several years
2. The Bogside residents group has never had the balls to go against the deal in Londodnderry and never will. Londonderry is still an SDLP city and organising violence around the parades will do nothing to help Sinn Fein change that.“Tommy Cheevers was a late appointee to the last Parades Commission after unionist whingeing”
Your information on this is wrong.
1. Tommy Cheevers was not a late appointee to the last Parades Commission. He was appointed with 3 others to bring the Commission up to bring it up to full strength.
2. Tommy Cheevers was not on the last commission he was on the first. There have been a couple of other Commissions since then.
3. Tommy Cheevers only served as a Commissioner for 3 months.Posted by on Dec 01, 2005 @ 11:12 PMThe orange order demanded the right to march through the peaceline gates at Workman avenue and onto the Springfield road.
They were prevented from doing so last year.
The orange order believed they had the right to march with banners commemorating a uvf murderer during the parade.
The orange order have no problems allowing convicted Shankill butcher Eddie McIlwaine (uvf) to march as part of an orange lodge while flanked by a uvf band who carry the colours of the present day brigades of the uvf.
The lodges associated with the uvf are the mainstay of the Whiterock parade.
fair deal
When will you accept that the uvf and the orange order are one in the same organisation?
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 01:35 AM“BB: With the best will in the world “ killing US, driving US from OUR lands, denying US the vote” conjures up an image of solidarity with groups of people long gone which isnt terribly plausible. The reality is that WE, alive now in 2005, dont have a lot in common with those people or those times. I try to resist using “us” in that sense b/c I simply feel that each generation stands alone and has its own problems to face - and sort out. Im not talking to you specifically, cept in the sense that you use that language, but I feel that continuous association with the past hasnt really got us terribly far, has it?”
Jo, what I said was necessary in order to explain to Concerned Loyalist why Catholics find these parades so offensive, especially Cromwellian regalia which is effectively the glorification of England’s equivalent of Hitler. I agree that people shouldn’t live in the past but it is very hard to move on from the past when every year, Catholics are reminded 2,550 times about past defeats at the hands of Protestants 300-400 years ago.
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 02:00 AMhere
I wish you’d take the trouble to use the same name instead of the same post with the same inaccuracies.
Eddie McIllwaine - Are ex-prisoners after serving their sentence allowed to re-integrate with society or not?
“When will you accept that the uvf and the orange order are one in the same organisation?”
I am a member of the Orange Order so is my father, one grandfather and two uncles. The other grandfather and two other uncles are former members. Not one of us is a member of the UVF. In the initiation and degrees of the OO there is no mention of the UVF. They are not the same organisations.
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 12:01 PMMcIlwaine belongs to the Old Boyne Island Heroes lodge on the Shankill. A considerable amount of its members have paramilitary connections.
UVF murderer Brian Robinson was a member. His memory is revered by the lodge.
Both Peter Taylor and Martin Dillion have written extensviely on the lodge and its paramilitary links.Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 12:08 PMEddie McIllwaine - Are ex-prisoners after serving their sentence allowed to re-integrate with society or not?
Fair-Deal
Strange that you don’t appear to have extended the same opportunity to Sean Kelly. Presumably though with your great concern for Human Rights of all you’d respect and support Sean Kelly if he wished to lead a Republican parade down the Shankill Road.
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 12:30 PMDec
Involvement in crime is not what I mean by re-integration.
Sean Kelly broke the terms of his licence and should be in prison, just like Johnny Adair broke his and was sent to jail.
The particulars of Sean Kelly aside, any ex-prisoner should be allowed to re-integrate into society like everyone else enjoy the protections of the ECHR. I do not demand something that I seek to deny to others. If republicans wish to hold a parade go ahead, anyone opposed hold a peaceful protest.
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 01:11 PMBrian Boru
“especially Cromwellian regalia which is effectively the glorification of England’s equivalent of Hitler.”
There is no statue of Hitler outside the Bundestag like there is of Cromwell outside Westminster. If the German equivalent had done a TV programme for the greatest Britain ever lived I am sure Hitler would not have appeared in it like Cromwell did.
Cromwell was much bigger than Ireland and the wars and associated atrocities that he executed in Ireland - but I doubt you will find many clean hands in 17th Century Europe.
Therefore please ligten up on Catholic persecution by Planters and Cromwell et al as it is really tiresome.
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 01:20 PM‘If republicans wish to hold a parade go ahead, anyone opposed hold a peaceful protest.’
Are those protests to be held in the middle of roads and junctions holding up and intimidating traffic or outside stormont/westminster?
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 01:33 PMcladycowboy
“intimidating traffic”
How do you intimidate a lorry?
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 01:47 PMAm I right in reading that we have people here debating who killed who 400 years ago?
Holy shit, Roger’s going to have fun.
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 02:23 PM‘How do you intimidate a lorry?’
show it a picture of a scrap-yard?
You know that i refer to the people driving the vehicles when there is a hostile crowd blocking the road. You also know my position on these types of parades, contentious ones cause trouble to spill over. Hey, if this new Maze stadia gets built they’ll have a lot of days where no sports are being played,why don’t the whiterock crowd hold a parade around the pitch and you could have 30,000 cheering them on? Would be good for morale..
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 03:43 PMFair-Deal
Kelly’s re-involvement in ‘crime’ is a moot point given that details of saihd re-involvement were non-existant (though I seem to recall several unionists stating that a photograph of him talking on a mobile phone was proof enough) and to compare him to Johnny Adair who instigated two feuds during is short tenure on the outsideis farcical.
That aside how about answering my main question?
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 03:56 PMirishman: unionists who initiate a parade with the sole intention of provoking a sectarian confrontation by trampling through a nationalist area are in no way comparable to those who seek not to offend, but to not be offended.
That’s a blanket condemnation (and mischaracterisation) of all contentious parades, isn’t it? Under the circumstances, even the existence of the Parades Commission seems to be irrelevant to you - let alone its membership.
By the way - are any of us meant to ’accept‘ violence?
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 05:43 PMDec
1. As was made clear by the PSNI the complaints of Unionists about Kelly’s presence at interfaces was not part of the case against him. Although the republican defence of his presence “He’s a hero to young people in the area” demonstrates a lot about the sectarian mindset of Ardoyne republicanism.
2. Hain refuses to release the information to the Agreement appointed body, the Life Sentences review Commission to deal with it. Republicans keep asking for the implementation of the agreement funny they didn’t demand it that time.
3. A breach of licence is a breach of licence the degree of breach is not the point. Whether you are caught in possession of a weapon or caught for a murder you have commited a breach and are thus subject to return to jail.
4. Here is the answer to your question a second time.
“any ex-prisoner should be allowed to re-integrate into society like everyone else enjoy the protections of the ECHR. I do not demand something that I seek to deny to others. If republicans wish to hold a parade go ahead, anyone opposed hold a peaceful protest.”Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 06:44 PMWho would we like to be on the parades commission? Should it be formed with people totally ‘uninvolved’ i.e. from outside the British Isles and Irish and Ulster/Scots diaspora?
The present make up provides some who know the background and with good lines of communication to the likely protagonists -a ‘bit of everything’ - and the commissioners can operate as checks and balances to each other. What more could we want?
Posted by on Dec 02, 2005 @ 07:51 PM
