Wednesday, March 12, 2008
More on Irish nationals in UK elections
Mick has already dealt with the Goldsmith report in detail. I just want to highlight that Ciaran’s post on the matter really is worth a read. Also, O’Neill’s perspective is interesting..
Michael Shilliday @ 09:22 AM
“The proposal, as it stands, only applies to Westminster elections - devolved, local government and European elections are unaffected (ROI-born Irish citizens qualifying through EU membership). Quite why the distiction between Westminster and devolved elections is there, I don’t know.”
As a matter of pure pedantry does it apply to Border Polls?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:20 PMWillowfield,
Yeah, but if the proposal being discussed were implemented, Southern [sic] Irish citizens wouldn’t be able to register, so they would be in the same category as China!Immediately, that would be in contravention of the GFA as you are requiring Irish citizens born in NI to define their nationality as British in order to be able to vote.
As much as you want to live in 1920, there is no “Southern Irish” citizenship, only Irish citizenship, there is no differentiation.
So the only way I see it working is to, as Goldsmith said, differentiate between Irish citizens born north and south of the border.
I know you began not believing there was a need for differentiation but at least you now finally accept differentiation is indeed necessary for this to work.
The question is whether and how this differentiation is possible.
Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law.
What you mean here is the Electoral Office would require the information necessary so that it can differentiate between Irish citizens born in NI and those born in the Irish Republic.
Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered - regardless of where he was born.
I imagine, though, that the form would be designed in such a way as not to offend the poor sensibilities of those nationalists who like to pretend that they aren’t UK citizens - so they could ask the question in some other way.
It’s nothing to do with sensibilities, it’s to do with holding to international agreements and making good law in general.
The question is, as Goldsmith rightly points out, how do you differentiate between Irish citizens without breaching the GFA?
Creating such a situation is most likley not as easy as simply asking for place of birth. There are certain to be unknown pitfalls.
The biggest pitfall I see straight off is how you word the restrictions on voting rights for Irish citizens.
Do you simply say only Irish citizens born in one part of Ireland can vote in Westminster elections and hope that holds water?
Do you accept the Irish passport as evidence of where these people were born or would there have to be some kind of British certification process?
Would such a certification process be legal or would it, as Ciaran points out, add a new hoop for one set of people who want to vote?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:22 PMwillow,
Been busy twittering the budget elsewhere today, but in case no one else has replied to this point:
“People born in Northern Ireland have been entitled to Southern Irish citizenship for over 50 years. The Belfast Agreement did not change this: it merely restated it.”
Qualification was open to people with grandparents who were born before partition. In the 70s that covered a lot of people. The Belfast Agreement meant people could qualify in their own right.
I used to be able to qualify through both my parents. Now I could pass that right on to my grandchildren.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:25 PMI’d imagine they can come up with some sort of wording to placate those with a seething hatred for all things British/a more sensitive disposition (delete as appropriate). Maybe something like a box to tick along the lines of:
“I confirm that I am a citizen of the United Kingdom.”
or
“I confirm that I am entitled to citizenship of the United Kingdom under [insert relevant act].”Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:32 PMMick
Qualification was open to people with grandparents who were born before partition. In the 70s that covered a lot of people. The Belfast Agreement meant people could qualify in their own right.
I have had an Irish passport since at least 1994, and my grandparents were born in the 30’s. Now my grandmother had Irish citizenship, and my mother and father have Irish citizenship, so maybe you’re saying that’s how it was passed down. But I’m almost certain you still qualified by birthright before the GFA.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:35 PM“I have had an Irish passport since at least 1994, and my grandparents were born in the 30’s. Now my grandmother had Irish citizenship, and my mother and father have Irish citizenship, so maybe you’re saying that’s how it was passed down.”
It might be one of the reasons, but the Roman Catholic schooling system is another reason, they’re a rule unto their own and they learn politics to their students from a very early age by promoting an All-Ireland, learning them the 1916 rising which took advantage of the great men who went to the Somme so they could still be Irishmen.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 05:03 PMWillowfield,
So, in sum, after a very long-winded reply, am I to understand that your response was, “I’m afraid I don’t know.”?
OK.
—-
Mick,
My understanding is that under the 1935 Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act a person registered as being born in Northern Ireland to a father of Irish citizenship was deemed a “natural-born citizens of Saorstát Eireann”. All persons residing in the Free State at the time of independence - which included Northern Ireland for the first month - were declared Irish citizens at that time (and in fact only these were the only Irish citizens until the 1935 act).
Under the 1956 Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, any person born in the six counties were Irish citizens following a declaration of allegiance. That remained the case until 2001.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 05:15 PMUlsters my homeland, learn from .. teach to. If the Saxe-Coburgs fall out and fight, why shouldn’t we, Irish, take the opportunity to give them all the old heave ho?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 05:20 PMWhat’s the difference between:
(a) “It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”; and
(b) “Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered - regardless of where he was born.”?
Both statements make the same point!
Unfortunately, you appear to have omitted (unintentionally, of course) this sentence from the latter post:
Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law.
which to my mind, would appear to be at odds with:
“It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”;
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 05:34 PMI’d imagine they can come up with some sort of wording to placate those with a seething hatred for all things British/a more sensitive disposition (delete as appropriate).
Beano
No doubt you were in favour of retaining Articles 2 & 3 of the Irish Constitution?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 05:35 PM“... which took advantage of the great men who went to the Somme so they could still be Irishmen.”
... of the futile slaughter of it all and of those great men who came back from the Somme and took up arms again at home so that they could be free Irishmen.
(”... they learn [sic] politics to their students ...” And <u>teach</u> them grammar too.)
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 05:54 PMWillowfield,
You are getting pitiful in your denial of reason.
It was a simple question about 20 comments ago; i just realized that you find it impossible to fathom that someone from the republic might live in the north.??Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:13 PMGeorge
Immediately, that would be in contravention of the GFA as you are requiring Irish citizens born in NI to define their nationality as British in order to be able to vote.
No: they would be acknowledging their UK citizenship - merely acknowledging a fact. That doesn’t mean they’re not Irish!
As much as you want to live in 1920, there is no “Southern Irish” citizenship, only Irish citizenship, there is no differentiation.
Er, “Irish citizenship”, so-called, is Southern Irish citizenship! There’s no all-Ireland state yet!
I know you began not believing there was a need for differentiation but at least you now finally accept differentiation is indeed necessary for this to work.
But I don’t. There is no need for differentiation - all UK citizens would get to vote. If you were a Southern Irish citizen, but not a UK citizen, you wouldn’t get a vote - regardless of where you were born.
What you mean here is the Electoral Office would require the information necessary so that it can differentiate between Irish citizens born in NI and those born in the Irish Republic.
No. They would need to remove the stuff saying that British, Irish or Commonwealth citizens can vote, and replace it with “BRitish or Commonwealth citizens” can vote.
It’s nothing to do with sensibilities, it’s to do with holding to international agreements and making good law in general.
No: it’s to do with sensibilities. There appear to be a lot of nationalists in NI who are in denial about being UK citizens and don’t like to be reminded.
The question is, as Goldsmith rightly points out, how do you differentiate between Irish citizens without breaching the GFA?
You don’t need to differentiate.
The biggest pitfall I see straight off is how you word the restrictions on voting rights for Irish citizens. Do you simply say only Irish citizens born in one part of Ireland can vote in Westminster elections and hope that holds water?
No you just say that only UK (and Commonwealth?) citizens can vote, and explain that holding Southern IRish citizenship alone is not enough.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:48 PMMick
Qualification was open to people with grandparents who were born before partition. In the 70s that covered a lot of people. The Belfast Agreement meant people could qualify in their own right.
That’s wrong, Mick. Anyone born in NI could apply for Southern Irish citizenship - at least since 1956.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:50 PMDec
Unfortunately, you appear to have omitted (unintentionally, of course) this sentence from the latter post: Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law.
And? HOw is that relevant?!
which to my mind, would appear to be at odds with: “It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”;
How on earth would it be at odds with that? Just because they need to design a new form doesn’t mean they need to distinguish between Southern Irish citizens born in the North and the South!
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:53 PMyingyangsang
You are getting pitiful in your denial of reason.
Really? What reason have I denied?
It was a simple question about 20 comments ago; i just realized that you find it impossible to fathom that someone from the republic might live in the north.??
I don’t find it impossible to fathom that. No idea what you’re talking about.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:55 PMWillowfield, there’s more for you to italicise here if you’re bothered: my latest response to you is far too long-winded to impose on Slugger.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 09:22 PMWillowfield/I don’t find it impossible to fathom that. No idea what you’re talking about./
So southern Irish ( how I indulge you ) would have the right to vote once they live in the north (indulge me) .Maybe you don’t realize that lots of nationalists would have nver been put on the register at birth , and now dur to GFA might put them themselves there in the fight/right with an Irish Passeport
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 09:29 PMWillowfield,/No: they would be acknowledging their UK citizenship - merely acknowledging a fact. That doesn’t mean they’re not Irish!
Oh yes it does.Hence the existence of northern ireland.Otherwise,there would have never been need for partition.Sill in denial!
Dubliner knows what i meanPosted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 09:51 PMAnd Irishness a subset cannto be!
Long live the prods our greatest victory,
for here on this little Isle of long misery,
short are the remains of unsaid calamity,
and so let it be kwown that the Republic is dead,
for slaves are we,
but to what, idiots call geography
Returns we shelter, sorry little fools we love,
with degrees from Engerland,and little love.
Subsets,upsets, and another eigth hundred betsPosted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 10:20 PMWillowfield’s response to an earlier comment by The Third Policeman ( see below) best illustrates, to my mind at least, the import of the rest of his argument regarding the practicality of any attempt to apply Goldsmith’s proposal on restricting the voting rights of Irish citizens resident in the UK.
His differentiation between the use of identification in determining the right of eligibility to vote and the use of such presentation to determine identity seems so almost correct that we almost sigh with disappointment as it falls short only by stumbling against the obstacle of the lack of any requirement (in England and Wales at least, from personal experience) to provide any identification whatsoever - either at the time of electoral registration or at the polling station itself where all that is required in order to register a vote is that one can give the correct name and address of the person on the register whom one purports to be. The mere presentation of the voting card of a registered voter will also usually suffice.
By this means it is perfectly possible that Tweety Carwardine, the electorally registered pet budgerigar of a close neighbour, has helped elect Tottenham’s own (and earlier) Barak Obama - the ever gorgeous and ever-so-slightly-black yet terribly clever Member of Parliament once tipped to be the UK’s first black (ish) prime minister.
Unfortunately he has again pre-empted Obama insofar that his slip from the public imagination has been so successful that I cannot at this moment recall his name.
The Third Policeman
I was born in Magherafelt in Co.Derry, I hold an Irish passport but no British one. If I turn up on voting day will my passport be an adequate form of ID?
The purpose of presenting a means of ID at the polling station is not to determine eligibility (that is done when the electoral register is collated): but to determine your identity. Therefore I see no reason why a Southern Irish passport could not continue to be used to prove your identity.
Posted by willowfield on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:35 PM
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 10:43 PMI just remembered old “I’ll never forget Whatsisname?” - as perhaps I should have given that he is my representative at parliament. He is of course the gorgeous, pouting and ever so eminently reasonable - even though he is just a little bit black (ish) - David Lammy!
His plummet to obscurity during a rapid ascent towards the height of fame cannot be solely attributed to his apparent lack of the Scots factor - it is more a case of, even were he to be Scots, he would be assumed to have more of Fettes than Firth o’ Forth. Not his fault - merely a paradigmatic image shift. Could happen to the bishop.
Posted by on Mar 13, 2008 @ 02:00 AMhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/British-passport.jpg
A photographic reproduction of a passport as issued to a citizen of “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. No description on any page describing the holder as “British”. This image offered by Wikipedia is the very same as that from the passport of an Englishwoman born in Somerset of yeoman stock and able, from local parish records, to trace her Somerset lineage back to the 18th century and she too is described not as “British” or even “English” but simply as “a citizen of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. In any case, like most English people, she does not think of herself at all as “British” - that, she says, is what those who aren’t “proper English” call themselves in a vain attempt to pretend they are also “proper”.
I know this to be her attitude - dear reader, I married her!
Posted by on Mar 13, 2008 @ 02:22 AMyingyangsang
So southern Irish ( how I indulge you ) would have the right to vote once they live in the north (indulge me) .
Under Goldsmith’s plan, not unless he was also a UK citizen.
Maybe you don’t realize that lots of nationalists would have nver been put on the register at birth , and now dur to GFA might put them themselves there in the fight/right with an Irish Passeport
No-one gets put on the register at birth: in the UK, the voting age is 18.
It’s not clear what point you are trying to make, I’m afraid.
RORY
Try flicking through the entire passport – and an examination of the British Nationality Act 1981 would also inform you as to the existence of the status of “British citizen”.
Posted by on Mar 13, 2008 @ 08:02 AMI think we should start calling Inishowen, Co.Donegal people “Northern northern Irish”. As it surely is impossible to have to go south to go to the north. It really should be down to “Northeastern Ireland” and “The rest of Ireland”.
Posted by on Mar 13, 2008 @ 08:37 AM
