Wednesday, March 12, 2008
More on Irish nationals in UK elections
Mick has already dealt with the Goldsmith report in detail. I just want to highlight that Ciaran’s post on the matter really is worth a read. Also, O’Neill’s perspective is interesting..
Michael Shilliday @ 09:22 AM
George
I think my own and Ciaran’s explanations as to why there is a differentiation in the practical workings of this are clear.
I don’t.
Remember, currently you do not need to give place of birth when registering to vote, only nationality.
And?
The practical question here is how does a presiding officer at a polling station differentiate between an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland and one born in the Republic if both persons produce an Irish passport?
He doesn’t need to differentiate between them. If the person is on the register, then the presiding officer, by law, must allow him or her to vote (provided – in NI – he can produce a valid form of ID).
You can’t have different registration rules for different British citizens so how do you remove the right to vote of an Irish citizen born in the Republic and at the same time identify somebody born in NI who takes up the Irish citizenship only option?
There is no “Irish-citizenship-only option” … unless someone applies to the Home Office or something and renounces his UK citizenship. I would say in such cases the Electoral Office should be informed and the person removed from the register.
Remember, Britain does not have ID cards and even if it did it couldn’t force Northern Ireland’s Irish to have one if the want to vote and allow others to show a passport or driving licence.
The ID cards at elections are to prove identity: not to determine eligibility to be on the register!
As far as I see, the only effect the GFA has on this issue is that it enshrines the right of the Irish in Northern Ireland not to define themselves as British.
A meaningless “right”.
While they are automatically British in an “electoral sense”, the practical problem is how do you differentiate them from the other Irish who are not British in an “electoral sense” if you are not able in any way to define them as British by demanding they carry a British passport etc.
You don’t need to differentiate them. If they’re UK citizens they’ll be on the register: if not, they won’t.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:40 PMThe practical question here is how does a presiding officer at a polling station differentiate between an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland and one born in the Republic if both persons produce an Irish passport?
er.. Electoral register?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:43 PMmajordolittle,
er.. Electoral register?Willowfield,
He doesn’t need to differentiate between them. If the person is on the register, then the presiding officer, by law, must allow him or her to vote (provided – in NI – he can produce a valid form of ID).You are still missing the point. I’ve said this twice already but you seem to keep ignoring it:
You don’t have to cite place of birth to get on the electoral register.
So how do you differentiate a person from NI with an Irish passport from one from the Repubic with one?
Will they remove the right to use an Irish passport as ID to register to vote?
What ID will they be required to show?
Will everyone that deals with voter registration be informed that only Irish passports where the person is born in the six counties count?
How will this new style of voter registration work practically?
How will you differentiate between those Irish citizens born in the Republic and those ones born in NI?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:53 PMGeorge
You are still missing the point. I’ve said this twice already but you seem to keep ignoring it: You don’t have to cite place of birth to get on the electoral register.
And I have asked - and you have ignored - so? So what if you don’t have to cite place of birth?
So how do you differentiate a person from NI with an Irish passport from one from the Repubic with one?
You don’t. Having or not having a Southern Irish passport is completely irrelevant to whether or not you go on the electoral register!
Will they remove the right to use an Irish passport as ID to register to vote?
I don’t see why that would be necessary.
What ID will they be required to show?
I don’t see why the current list would need to change.
Will everyone that deals with voter registration be informed that only Irish passports where the person is born in the six counties count?
You don’t need to produce ID to go on to the electoral register!
How will this new style of voter registration work practically?
It wouldn’t be new: it would continue as now.
How will you differentiate between those Irish citizens born in the Republic and those ones born in NI?
You won’t. There would be no need to.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:59 PM“Genetically” Irish? 5,000 years of mongrel RNA and counting.
So, should the Republic renege on it’s reciprocal courtesy of likewise extending voting rights to British citizens? It’s funny, I had always though that the British view of “British” was that it was a unifying identity that could be shared by all of the peoples of all of these islands (much to Irish nationalist vexation). Turns out that it doesn’t. Turns out that it’s not an identity at all, but simply a matter of law and specifically excludes people of the Republic of Ireland.
So much for neighbourliness and collegiality.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:00 PMWF
On the same basis as they would prevent, say, a Chinese or Venezuelan citizen from voting and allow you to do so … by not registering him, but registering you!
Sorry, since when were Chinese or Venezulan citizens allowed to vote in UK elections? You appear to be missing the point that currently, Irish citizens are entitled to vote in UK elections. If that right is removed how does ‘officialdom’ distinguish between Irish citizens still entitled to vote and those who aren’t? No-one is suggesting that the problem is insurmountable but that current arrangements will have to be adjusted/amended. Simply parroting on about just registering UK citizens doesn’t really address the problem.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:04 PMWillowfield,
And I have asked - and you have ignored - so? So what if you don’t have to cite place of birth?Because otherwise they won’t know if you were born in the UK or not. Why don’t you have a look at the form you have to fill out and the information needed to register to vote.
http://www.eoni.org.uk/new_registration_form.pdf
When you have, I hope it becomes clear to you the issue of differentiating if the UK wants to refuse the vote to Irish citizens not born in the UK.
How would you be able to differentiate between an Irish passport carrying George born in Dublin and Irish passport carrying George born in Belfast for the purposes of voting register integrity?
Then you have the knock-on effects when it comes to the ID presented when voting.
If you don’t see the issue at this stage, I give up trying to explain it to you.Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:15 PMSorry, since when were Chinese or Venezulan citizens allowed to vote in UK elections?
They aren’t (unless they have dual UK citizenship), and - under the proposal being discussed - neither would Southern Irish citizens (unless they had dual UK citizenship).
You appear to be missing the point that currently, Irish citizens are entitled to vote in UK elections.
I’m not missing the point ... since the proposal is that that should change!!
If that right is removed how does ‘officialdom’ distinguish between Irish citizens still entitled to vote and those who aren’t?
The same way as they distinguish between Chinese and Venezuelan citizens entitled to vote and those who aren’t!
No-one is suggesting that the problem is insurmountable but that current arrangements will have to be adjusted/amended.
How?
Simply parroting on about just registering UK citizens doesn’t really address the problem.
What is the problem? Please define it.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:15 PMGeorge
Because otherwise they won’t know if you were born in the UK or not.
And why would they need to?
Why don’t you have a look at the form you have to fill out and the information needed to register to vote. When you have, I hope it becomes clear to you the issue of differentiating if the UK wants to refuse the vote to Irish citizens not born in the UK.
Sorry, I’ve looked at the form and it’s not clear.
How would you be able to differentiate between an Irish passport carrying George born in Dublin and Irish passport carrying George born in Belfast for the purposes of voting register integrity?
The same way as they differentiate between a Chinese-passport-carrying George born in Shanghai and Chinese-passport-carrying George born in Belfast.
Then you have the knock-on effects when it comes to the ID presented when voting.
What would those knock-on effects be?
If you don’t see the issue at this stage, I give up trying to explain it to you.
What is the issue?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:19 PMOne point that hasn’t been considered. How is someone born in Malin head, Co.Donegal, which is more northern than northern Ireland be considered southern Irish. The plot thickens.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:21 PMWillowfield, you are missing the question. How does a person register to vote in the United Kingdom? How do they prove that they are a UK citizen?
If a person is born in Northern Ireland, say, has an Irish passport but not a British one, what extra hoops will they have to jump through? What is the Chinese or Venezulan citizen asked for if they try to register to vote in the UK? Are they just asked to produce a UK passport?
What is the mechanism for determining citizenship? And how will this proposed change in law affect electoral registration as a result?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:23 PMThen Willow how are you going to stop any irish citizen with a passport from voting
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:25 PMWillowfield,
read the form again. Firstly, only British, Irish or Commonwealth citizens can register so forget China.Remember that the idea is to remove Westminster voting rights for Irish citizens not born in NI.
So, having looked at the form, how would you differentiate between someone born in Belfast and someone born in Dublin if both put down their nationality as “Irish” in the nationality box?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:25 PMSomeone above, Chekov I think, said Unionism is a much more inclusive philosophy than Nationalism. That being the case I am sure there are zero incidents of attacks on Poles, Chinese etc in Loyalist areas whereas I am sure the nasty narrow Nationalists never stop harrassing this non-Irish element, would that be right?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:35 PMTwo points:
1) The proposal, as it stands, only applies to Westminster elections - devolved, local government and European elections are unaffected (ROI-born Irish citizens qualifying through EU membership). Quite why the distiction between Westminster and devolved elections is there, I don’t know.
2) Goldsmith’s report states “the restriction of the right to vote in Westminster elections should be phased, so that no person who is already resident or registered to vote in the UK loses the right to vote.”. So a very long-term change.
That’s if you believe that any of this will come to pass at all - personally, I don’t, which makes it look even more like a storm in a teacup.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:37 PMOILIFEAR
Willowfield, you are missing the question. How does a person register to vote in the United Kingdom? How do they prove that they are a UK citizen?
They register by completing a form. In Northern Ireland, you have to declare your nationality and provide your national insurance number (that may not be necessary in GB).
I don’t think there is any need to prove that you are a UK citizen: they just seem to take it at face value. I guess, though, that if there were any suspicion some kind of enquiries would be made.
If a person is born in Northern Ireland, say, has an Irish passport but not a British one, what extra hoops will they have to jump through?
I don’t see why they would have to jump through any hoops - as a UK citizen they would be registered on the same basis as any other UK citizen and - if there were any hoops to jump through - they would be the same hoops as would be required of any other UK citizen.
What is the Chinese or Venezulan citizen asked for if they try to register to vote in the UK? Are they just asked to produce a UK passport?
I’ve no idea.
What is the mechanism for determining citizenship? And how will this proposed change in law affect electoral registration as a result?
As I said above, it seems that you just have to declare your citizenship on the form. What steps are taken to detect anyone making a false declaration, I’m afraid I don’t know.
STEVE
Then Willow how are you going to stop any irish citizen with a passport from voting
It wouldn’t be for me to stop them: it would, presumably, be for the Electoral Office. I imagine they would do the same thing as they do to stop a Chinese or Venezuelan citizen with a passport from voting.
GEORGE
Firstly, only British, Irish or Commonwealth citizens can register so forget China.
Yeah, but if the proposal being discussed were implemented, Southern Irish citizens wouldn’t be able to register, so they would be in the same category as China!
Remember that the idea is to remove Westminster voting rights for Irish citizens not born in NI.
No: it would be for all Southern Irish citizens who were not also UK citizens. (A Southern Irish citizen born in NI, but not a UK citizen, would not be eligible.)
So, having looked at the form, how would you differentiate between someone born in Belfast and someone born in Dublin if both put down their nationality as “Irish” in the nationality box?
Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law. Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered - regardless of where he was born.
I imagine, though, that the form would be designed in such a way as not to offend the poor sensibilities of those nationalists who like to pretend that they aren’t UK citizens - so they could ask the question in some other way.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:44 PMWF
Congratulations on your successful attempt to transform this thread into a modernist re-working of No Exit.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:48 PMGive yourself a pat on the back for cleverness, Dec, but all I’m doing is pointing out that the issue about distinguishing between Northern-born and Southern-born ROI citizens is a red herring.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:52 PMHow can they be southern born if they’re born in Donegal ya langer.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:55 PMExceptional, humbling work from Willow as always.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:57 PMWillowfield ... you are amazing. Master of scintillating cynicism and amazing repartee and total evader of questions asked.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:00 PMPancho
I haven’t knowingly evaded any questions, let alone the totality of questions asked of me.
Quite the opposite, in fact: I have sought to answer all questions put to me.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:03 PMGive yourself a pat on the back for cleverness, Dec, but all I’m doing is pointing out that the issue about distinguishing between Northern-born and Southern-born ROI citizens is a red herring.
Sure you did WF.
The original position was that:
“It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”Your latest is:
“Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law. Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered - regardless of where he was born. “
And all it took was several pages of various people trying to get you to understand a single, simple point. Rest assured your status as a byword in pedantry and evassiveness is secure.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:08 PMDec
The original position was that:
“It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”And nor would it.
Your latest is:
“Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law. Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered - regardless of where he was born. “ </i>Indeed.
And all it took was several pages of various people trying to get you to understand a single, simple point. Rest assured your status as a byword in pedantry and evassiveness is secure.
You’re not making any sense, Dec.
What’s the difference between:
(a) “It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”; and
(b) “Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered - regardless of where he was born.”?
Both statements make the same point!
Dear me, Dec!
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:16 PMWhen registering on the electoral register in Britain one only requires to complete the electoral registration forms which are sent periodically (and it appears with increasing frequency) to every household and which are required to be completed by the householder on pain of penalty.
There is no requirement for any identification to accompany the completed form, nor have I ever been aware of any checks ever having been made to verify the answers to the questions thereon given by myself or indeed anyone.Indeed it is a matter of record that any number of dogs, cats and budgerigars that have been entered on the forms either as a result of their owner’s sentimentality or out of sheer devilment and are thus perfectly entitled to vote accordingly (indeed I suspect that a lot of them probably do).
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 04:18 PM
