Wednesday, March 12, 2008
More on Irish nationals in UK elections
Mick has already dealt with the Goldsmith report in detail. I just want to highlight that Ciaran’s post on the matter really is worth a read. Also, O’Neill’s perspective is interesting..
Michael Shilliday @ 11:22 AM
Rory: Not so I’m afraid, DM. If you will check carefully I think that you will find that you are not British, in the sense that you are not a British citizen
Wouldn’t Gordon Brown and David Cameron discover the same sort of thing about themselves using the same test? And therefore haven’t you just denied the existence of British Citizens, and indeed the British themselves? Neat trick, but no sale!
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:55 PMYou are Irish if you are born on the island of Ireland. You are a langer if you are born on the island of Ireland but pledge your allegience to a foreign head of state. Therefore, slaves still exist in Ireland, but thats just down to their own serf mindset.
Arise dear slaves and throw off the shackles of Britain.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:55 PMJ Gallagher
You can’t impose nationality on people.
Indeed you cannot, but you can impose citizenship on them.
I’m Irish genetically, heritage wise and in terms of my culture… end of story.
Please accept my congratulations! And so am I – isn’t that wonderful?
My allegiance begins and ends in Ireland.
It’s entirely a matter for you where your “allegiance” begins and ends.
You could call a wolf hound [sic] (an Irish one!!!! lol) a golden retriever and even give it a name tag saying that or even call it both but at the end of the day.... it’s a wolf hound [sic].
I couldn’t agree more.
I have no identity problems.
I’m glad. Nor do I.
At the same time I respect Irish protestant’s [sic] right to swear allegiance to a foreign country but why can’t they respect their British identity/culture but swear ultimate allegiance to the country where they ACTUALLY LIVE.
Well, you say you respect Irish Protestants’ rights to “swear allegiance” to (presumably) the UK – although when this “swearing of allegiance” takes place is unclear – but then you betray yourself by referring to the UK as a “foreign country”: clearly you do NOT respect unionists or unionism. And unionists (and, by extension, most Irish Protestants), DO live in the UK.
Look at Irish Americans for instance.
Why?
Are we Irish not smart enough to dictate our own affairs?
In my view we certainly are.
The world views northern Protestants as Irish, even the Brits whenever the go over there and any northern protestant who becomes famous seems to have no problem in calling themselves IRISH (not N.Irish, British etc. such as Paul Rankin, Van Morrison, Eddie Irvine… you get the picture).
Well, of course: as I already said, they ARE Irish!
Some day the reality will dawn.
To what reality do you refer?
An even stranger post.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:11 PMThe passport description of British Citizen does not fit with the constitutional niceties of the descripion United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; however, I do concede that, by that passport description, that a UK (British, if you like) passport holder who was born in Northern Ireland could be described as being “British”
But this is only really true in the sense that a grain of salt within a pepper pot may be descibed as “pepperish”. Once shaken from the pot it becomes clearly a mere grain. The pepper grains though will yet remain as always - pepper!
If Northern Ireland is shaken loose from the United Kingdom to merge within a unified Irish state - as is possible (and, some think, inevitable) then the natives of that political entity of Northern Ireland will will find that are considered to be (and always to have been) pepper - no matter of any former association with salt.
This would not be true of a native of the other parts of the United Kingdom - the kingdoms of England and Scotland and the principality of Wales. The United Kingdom could cease to be and yet any native of these three parts of Great Britain would yet remain British (or, salts, if you like).
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:15 PMJust checked the All things Ulster site, but theres no reference to Cavan, Monaghan or Donegal. There are none so blind as those that will not see.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:16 PMGeorge
For the practicalities of voting, it would be necessary to distinguish Irish citizens born in the UK from those born in the Irish Republic.
How would it? According the proposal, only UK citizens would be voting, so why would you need to distinguish between Southern Irish citizens?
Currently, in order to register to vote you only need to declare nationality, not place of birth and nationality.
And why would that make a difference? Anyone who declared themselves not to be a UK citizen wouldn’t vote, presumably.
Any legislation would have to take into account Northern Ireland’s 300,000 Irish citizens, who were born in NI but (the majority of whom) don’t hold a British passport, and somehow differentiate them from Northern Ireland’s other 40,000 Irish citizens, who were born south of the border.
Why? Holding a British passport has nothing to do with it. You don’t have to hold a passport to vote! If you did, the electoral roll would shrink quite considerably.
Remember these people are under no obligation to hold a British passport so the simplest way for this suggestion to work is for a differentiation to be made.
No-one is under an obligation to hold a British passport!
Or how would you differentiate between them if they don’t hold a British passport?
You don’t need to differentiate between them!
CIARAN
Willowfield, I’ve responded to you here. Basic thrust of my point: you haven’t quite understood me (or the practical problem Goldsmith poses for that matter).
I think I have, and I think you and Goldsmith misunderstand the GFA and the law. I’ve responded on your blog.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:18 PMsweet jesus on a pogostick. The world really has gone mad when Willowfield is the voice of reason in a debate.
I agree with him completely. I hold a British passport yet see myself as Irish, just as a man in scotland is still Scottish and the Welshman is still Welsh. Yet I live in Northern Ireland. That boarder exists and is recognised by every country, map maker and Sat Nav maker in the world.
What the hell is wrong with Gallagher in this thread, is he channeling The Sun’s Melvin McKenzie or something?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:25 PMBut if you’re not born in Britain how in the name of God can you be 100% British. You just can’t, and no Sat Nav or Map Maker can make you so.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:31 PMFor the practicalities of voting, it would be necessary to distinguish Irish citizens born in the UK from those born in the Irish Republic.
How would it? According the proposal, only UK citizens would be voting, so why would you need to distinguish between Southern Irish citizens?
I am an Irish citizen from Belfast who therfore is entitled to vote in UK elections. Say I have a cousin from Donegal who lives in Belfast and like me, does not hold a British passport. How then does ‘officialdom’ prevent him from voting and allow me to do so?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:38 PMIf you are from a nationalist backround, why do you have 2 passports?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:41 PMCurious
if that was aimed at me you should perhaps read this segment again:
...and like me, does not hold a British passport.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:46 PMThis subject always brings out the worst in some Irish nationalists - it seems they just cannot get their head around the idea that the British and Irish nationalities and identities arent mutually exclusive!
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:47 PMOK, question for Willowfield.
I was born in Magherafelt in Co.Derry, I hold an Irish passport but no British one. If I turn up on voting day will my passport be an adequate form of ID?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:49 PMBritian is the island to the east of Ireland. People from Britain are British, people from Ireland are Irish. If the UK breaks up tomorrow the people of Scotland, England & Wales will still be British because they were born on the island of Britian.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:50 PMBob
This subject always brings out the worst in some Irish nationalists - it seems they just cannot get their head around the idea that the British and Irish nationalities and identities arent mutually exclusive!
Some Unionists with British citizenship can’t seem to get their heads round the fact that Irishness isn’t a subset of Britishness.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:52 PMI love to read this type of discussion. It confirms all my arguments about unionism being at its root broad and nuanced in its conception of identity and nationalism being prescriptive and exclusive. If we could stick to this topic unionism would win hands down as the more progressive philosophy.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:12 PMThe Truth: Britian is the island to the east of Ireland.
Wrong (this isn’t a spelling flame - the island is called “Great Britain")
Great Britain does not include the Orkney and Shetland Islands, which are however still Scottish, and therefore (still) British.
Any attempt to argue Nationality, Identity or Citizenship defined purely from lumps of land surrounded by water is going to collapse. The Irish Nationalist dream is not (yet?) a reality.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:12 PM‘Irish ‘genetically’ hmmmm. What does that mean?’
It means that of the 4 billion people directly involved at a very precise moment to a nanosecond in their copulatory activities stretching back at least 8,000 years which have culminated in the creation of this ‘individual’ that these activities took place on the island of Ireland . Proving this may be another story :)
Thus he would see himself as more Irish ‘genetically’ than say Eamon De Valera , or Patrick Pearse or Thomas Davis or Erskine Childers or James Connolly etc . He is also probably infinitely more Irish genetically than that lady in Munster who has a proven genetic link to Otzi ( the 5,500 year old iceman of the Alps who was de iced from his grave a few years ago ! )
jayzus wept !
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:15 PM‘Some Unionists with British citizenship can’t seem to get their heads round the fact that Irishness isn’t a subset of Britishness.’
I’m glad you say some . There are many who do not use the word ‘irish’ at all at all. They are British and British only. Which resolves all of the confusion of course . The fact that they live in Ireland rather than Britain is neither here nor there as Irish people have lived in Britain in numbers since the 17th century if not earlier without making Britain -Ireland so to speak.
In the political sense you are correct - Ireland (the Republic) is not a subset of Britain . However Northern Ireland is a subset of the UK which includes oddly enough Britain thus in a political sense even the Irish in Northern Ireland never mind what Unionists call themselves are a subset of United Kingdomness or more plainly Britishness.
Yes I know it’s all as confusing as shite which is why I wish these effin eejits would just decide to repartition Northern Ireland so there could be clear line and people would not confuse political with national or cultural identity!
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:25 PMJust as the BNP argue that it’s not possible for a British Asian to be equally proud and entitled to both their British and Asian identity, it would appear that some Irish nationalists here are arguing that it is not possible for people bprn in N.Ireland to be equally proud and entitled to both their British and Irish identity.
Seems a very narrow and parochial attitude to hold in this day and age.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:29 PMCHEKOV:
Nationalism is indeed, almost by definition, “prescriptive and exclusive” it prescribes and excludes anyone who does not share in its national origin. Unionism, on the other hand, seeks to marry itself to an origin other than itself and, by so doing, to share in the national description of that “other” - in this case - British.
READER:
”The Irish Nationalist dream is not (yet?) a reality.”
Indeed it is not - but the GFA did bring that dream to hovering on the brink of realisation, which progress was hampered not one iota by the pretence of the St. Andrew’s fiddlefaddle.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:30 PMWillowfield,
I think my own and Ciaran’s explanations as to why there is a differentiation in the practical workings of this are clear.I think your are failing to take them into account so are misunderstanding myself, Goldsmith and Ciaran. But I will try again.
Remember, currently you do not need to give place of birth when registering to vote, only nationality.
The practical question here is how does a presiding officer at a polling station differentiate between an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland and one born in the Republic if both persons produce an Irish passport?
You can’t have different registration rules for different British citizens so how do you remove the right to vote of an Irish citizen born in the Republic and at the same time identify somebody born in NI who takes up the Irish citizenship only option?
Remember, Britain does not have ID cards and even if it did it couldn’t force Northern Ireland’s Irish to have one if the want to vote and allow others to show a passport or driving licence.
As far as I see, the only effect the GFA has on this issue is that it enshrines the right of the Irish in Northern Ireland not to define themselves as British.
While they are automatically British in an “electoral sense”, the practical problem is how do you differentiate them from the other Irish who are not British in an “electoral sense” if you are not able in any way to define them as British by demanding they carry a British passport etc.Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:30 PMBritian is the island to the east of Ireland. People from Britain are British, people from Ireland are Irish. If the UK breaks up tomorrow the people of Scotland, England & Wales will still be British because they were born on the island of Britian.
Posted by The Truth on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:50 PM
And just who are you to dictate what nationality I am? For all the nationalists here screaming at nasty Unionists enforcing British nationality on them I sure see a hell of a lot of the usual suspects trying to deny unionists their prefered nationality.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:32 PMJust to clarify.
Ireland = Republic of Ireland + Northern Ireland.
Ireland = 26 counties + 6 counties.
Ireland = 32 counties.Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:33 PMDec
I am an Irish citizen from Belfast who therfore [sic] is entitled to vote in UK elections. Say I have a cousin from Donegal who lives in Belfast and like me, does not hold a British passport. How then does ‘officialdom’ prevent him from voting and allow me to do so?
On the same basis as they would prevent, say, a Chinese or Venezuelan citizen from voting and allow you to do so … by not registering him, but registering you!
The Third Policeman
I was born in Magherafelt in Co.Derry, I hold an Irish passport but no British one. If I turn up on voting day will my passport be an adequate form of ID?
The purpose of presenting a means of ID at the polling station is not to determine eligibility (that is done when the electoral register is collated): but to determine your identity. Therefore I see no reason why a Southern Irish passport could not continue to be used to prove your identity.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:35 PM
