Wednesday, March 12, 2008
More on Irish nationals in UK elections
Mick has already dealt with the Goldsmith report in detail. I just want to highlight that Ciaran’s post on the matter really is worth a read. Also, O’Neill’s perspective is interesting..
Michael Shilliday @ 12:22 PM
It’s only Wikipedia, but:
“People from Northern Ireland are British citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the United Kingdom (e.g. by birth in the UK to at least one parent who is a UK permanent resident or citizen, or by naturalisation).”
So nationalists born in NI can vote at Westminster, if they so choose, unless they have renounced their UK citizenship by writing to the Home Office.
If you’re so anti-being British that you have your UK citizenship annulled, would you vote for a Westminster MP anyway?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 12:32 PMLets hope there is a rush by Nationalists and Republicans to renounce their UK citizenship and a lot of applications to secure Irish citizenship.
T.RuthPosted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 12:51 PMafter all the effort republicans have put into being Irish turns out they will be forever known as Irish (British)
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 12:53 PMLord Goldsmith [nor Ciaran] doesn’t understand the Belfast Agreement or Southern Irish citizenship law.
People born in Northern Ireland have been entitled to Southern Irish citizenship for over 50 years. The Belfast Agreement did not change this: it merely restated it.
People born in Northern Ireland are also - rather obviously - UK citizens on the same basis as anyone born anywhere else in the UK.
So anyone from Northern Ireland who takes up his right to Southern Irish citizen remains a UK citizen: he attains dual citizenship.
Were the right of Southern Irish citizens to vote in UK general elections removed, that would not affect people from Northern Ireland, since such people remain UK citizens and therefore would retain their right to vote.
It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:08 PMI come from Tyrone and hold an Irish passport as it is my birth right. I went to the US in the summer and the customs girl looked at my passport and said you’re Irish and I said ‘Yes, and damn proud of it’
People in other parts of the world see people in Ireland north or south as IRISH full stop.
I’m sorry I know it hurts but you can’t change the fact that the geographical entity you dwell on is called Ireland.
Slan agaibh agus go n-eiri t-adh libh!
Bye and good luckPosted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:16 PMPeople in other parts of the world see people in Ireland north or south as IRISH full stop.
Er, that’ll be because they ARE Irish!
Doesn’t mean they can’t also be British.
I’m sorry I know it hurts but you can’t change the fact that the geographical entity you dwell on is called Ireland.
Has anyone attempted to change that fact?
Strange post.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:21 PMI’m sorry, I know you guys call England, Scotland and wales the ‘United Kingdom’ but it seems as though all the parts of it want to be separate.
I mean, in 50 years, if NI isn’t reunified, the Scots will have done it. The only catch is that this would be under a Federal European Union style system where the ultimate nationality would be European. That is already the case actually. If you’re British or Irish or from mainland Europe you are ultimately under the rule the European Union.
Sorry if I offend ayone, I am Spanish and live in Ireland now (Antrim) and try to undertsand you politics here. Please give your views. Gracias mon amigosPosted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:24 PM“I know you guys call England, Scotland and wales the ‘United Kingdom’”
Sorry Carlos, we actually call that Great Britain. It’s only the United Kingdom if you add in Northern Ireland. Not that any of that is really relevant. It just seems that either Wikipedia or Lord Goldsmith is wrong. Normally I’d assume the former, but I did look into this a little bit some time ago and Wikipedia seems to be correct.
So it boils down to the fact that no special provision needs to be made, unless you want to give people (from Northern Ireland) who have renounced their (UK) citizenship the right to vote at Westminster elections. Personally I don’t see any reason to do this.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:31 PM‘I am Spanish and live in Ireland now (Antrim) and try to undertsand you politics here.’
Keep trying -Your grandchildren might :)
BTW Why can’t the Basques be independent from Spain ? They have an entirely different language in fact it’s unique in all of europe .
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:40 PMHi,
You can’t impose nationality on people. I’m Irish genetically, heritage wise and in terms of my culture… end of story. My allegiance begins and ends in Ireland. You could call a wolf hound (an Irish one!!!! lol) a golden retriever and even give it a name tag saying that or even call it both but at the end of the day.... it’s a wolf hound.
Maybe you have a more simpistic view of identity but thats how I see it. I have no identity problems. At the same time I respect Irish protestant’s right to swear allegiance to a foreign country but why can’t they respect their British identity/culture but swear ultimate allegiance to the country where they ACTUALLY LIVE. Look at Irish Americans for instance. Are we Irish not smart enough to dictate our own affairs? The world views northern Protestants as Irish, even the Brits whenever the go over there and any northern protestant who becomes famous seems to have no problem in calling themselves IRISH (not N.Irish, British etc. such as Paul Rankin, Van Morrison, Eddie Irvine… you get the picture).
Some day the reality will dawn. Slan. Taistaim ag dul go dti and leithris uaim anois! Bye, need to go to the bog nowPosted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:40 PMSo the rest of the world can call Ulster Protestants (your words) irish, but woe betide anyone who calls you anything other than Irish?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:47 PMCalm down JG. I’m as Irish as you are, but whaddya know, I’m British too! That’s my Irish unionist identity.
Carlos, qué tal estas? Bienvenido a Slugger - a veces el mundo de la política irlandesa es como un campo de minas - todavia puedes huir si quieras!
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:57 PMCarlos
Just to explain, I’m sure DM meant to say he’s Irish, but a British citizen too. Otherwise you’d probably be wondering how one person could originate from two seperate and distinct land masses.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:04 PMThank you, Michael for those links. Ciaran’s in particular was very illuminating and all engaging with this post would do well to read it.
As I have already written on Mick’s post on this topic I do not think that this will fly. The restriction on RoI citizen’s voting rights will not pass the practicality test and would annoy not only Irish citizens resident in the UK but the many, many UK citizens of Irish descent. The loyalty oath will fall because of youth’s opposition which I suspect will manifest itself in the form of a mixture of downright apathy and contemptuous sneering, but also because the common decent, thinking Englishman will deeply resent that his children have to swear an oath to proclaim their loyalty to their own country. Not Charles I, not Cromwell nor King Billy nor even nasty George I asked that of their subjects and citizens. They happily rested on the assumption of it - safe in the knowledge of the power they had over any who should prove to be disloyal.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:05 PMIrish ‘genetically’ hmmmm. What does that mean?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:06 PMNah Dec, family ties, cultural and political interests all make me pretty British I’d say. Plus my citizenship of course. In the same way that I haven’t claimed my Irish citizenship but I’m still Irish. As the IFA/FAI dispute thread showed, there’s a lot more to identity than where you’re born.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:10 PM“Nah Dec, family ties, cultural and political interests all make me pretty British I’d say. Plus my citizenship of course. In the same way that I haven’t claimed my Irish citizenship but I’m still Irish. “
Yeah, sure. I have relations in Australia, have occasionally watched ‘Neighbours’, and laughed heartily when paul keating groped your Queen’s arse - doesn’t make me Australian. Though my sister has citizenship. I presume you’re Irish as you originate from the island of Ireland. Nothing more, nothing less. You can call yourself what you want, but it’s best to maintain some semblance of consistency when lecturing visitors to these shores.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:18 PM“Plus my citizenship of course.”
Not so I’m afraid, DM. If you will check carefully I think that you will find that you are not British, in the sense that you are not a British citizen - you are a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which still leaves you Irish by any means.
You may of course identify with and prefer to immerse yourself in British culture if you so choose as may I identify myself as culturally Texan if I watch enough John Wayne movies. But I would not recommend hiring me on for a cattle drive
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:20 PMActually my comments were directed at J Gallagher, not ‘Carlos’, who by the by is probably a sock puppet, judging by the fact that he doesn’t seem to have mastered the basics of his ‘own’ language (’mon amigos’?)
But regardless - I will call myself what I want, and indeed snide remarks from yourself and others will not diminish my sense of identity. This all sounds awfully familiar, doesn’t it?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:23 PMIf by ‘snide’ you mean factually correct, so be it. Btw No-one’s trying to diminish your citizenship.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:28 PMJG - “I come from Tyrone and hold an Irish passport as it is my birth right. I went to the US in the summer and the customs girl looked at my passport and said you’re Irish and I said ‘Yes, and damn proud of it’ “
LOL!! and she reacted with, let me guess… complete indifference? Ah the supreme narcissism of the (northern) Irish..
Rory - I’ve just checked my passport and it says “British Citizen” (I mention this just as a point of fact - I also have an Irish passport, and couldn’t give a fock what people call me)
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:28 PMRory:
British Citizens usually hold this status through a connection with the United Kingdom, Channel Islands and Isle of Man ("United Kingdom and Islands"). Former Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKCs) who possessed right of abode under the Immigration Act 1971 through a connection with the United Kingdom and Islands generally became British citizens on 1 January 1983.British citizenship is the most common type of British nationality, and the only one that automatically carries a right of abode in the United Kingdom.
From wikipedia. It also says ‘British’ on the passport.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:30 PMWillowfield,
It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!For the practicalities of voting, it would be necessary to distinguish Irish citizens born in the UK from those born in the Irish Republic.
Currently, in order to register to vote you only need to declare nationality, not place of birth and nationality.
Any legislation would have to take into account Northern Ireland’s 300,000 Irish citizens, who were born in NI but (the majority of whom) don’t hold a British passport, and somehow differentiate them from Northern Ireland’s other 40,000 Irish citizens, who were born south of the border.
Remember these people are under no obligation to hold a British passport so the simplest way for this suggestion to work is for a differentiation to be made.
An Irish passport says where in Ireland you are born so Irish citizens born in NI can simply provide it as ID if they want to vote.
Or how would you differentiate between them if they don’t hold a British passport?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:35 PMWillowfield, I’ve responded to you here. Basic thrust of my point: you haven’t quite understood me (or the practical problem Goldsmith poses for that matter).
Beano, I suspect both Wikipedia and Lord Goldsmith are correct in a sense. I’d put it like this: people born in NI, no matter how they designate themselves under the GFA, have access to a range of rights and privileges that constitute, in lots of ways, British citizenship - access to the NHS etc. The problem arises when Goldsmith tries to tie one of those citizenship rights - the right to vote in Westminster elections - to some more declarative sense of British citizenship. That is, I think, the sense Goldsmith means when he suggest bringing in oaths of allegiance, declarations and the like.
He wants to render the distinction between British citizens and non-citizens (in the declarative sense) sharper by giving the British citizens rights that the others don’t have, but he also wants to make an exception for people who have chosen the Irish citizenship line (and not the ‘British’ or ‘both’ lines) under the GFA, as is their right if they were born in NI (terms and conditions to that outlined in Annex 2 of the GFA). So those people are not British citizens in the declarative sense, but ought to be afforded all British citizenship in the rights-and-privileges sense.
The problem is: how do you tell the GFA Irish citizens in the UK from the ROI statutes Irish citizens in the UK? You can’t do it in a way that would increase the burden on them in registering to vote because that would constitute a special barrier to them registering and thus would deny their citizenship in the rights-and-privileges sense.
If you see what I mean…
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:36 PMWhat would be interesting is if the boy Goldsmith’s proposals on citizenship were imposed/introduced in Non Iron with certain rights linked to some sort of oath of loyalty to the UK state. The right to vote in elections in Westminster could in theory ( though unlikely in practice ) be linked to this oath of loyalty.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 02:43 PM
