Friday, January 18, 2008
Missed opportunity in Downpatrick…
JUST listening to Talkback, where it was revealed that St Patrick’s Orange Lodge will NOT march in this year’s St Patrick’s Day parade in Downpatrick. The lodge’s reason for turning down the invite seemed to be over a lack of assurances that they’d be able to display or wear the regalia of their choice. There had also been concerns for the safety of the marchers, but either way, it’s all a bit of a let-down for what could have been a positive move for community relations.
Belfast Gonzo @ 02:27 PM
Very disappointing.
It would have been an extremely positive event if the lodge had taken part.
The lodge’s reason for turning down the invite seemed to be over a lack of assurances that they’d be able to display or wear the regalia of their choice.
I’m very curious as to exactly what “regalia” they wanted to wear and what “regalia” was presumed to have been unacceptable to the organisers.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 02:40 PMBit of a shame that. Suppose there would be abit of a concern about safety from people at the parade drinking. Not slagging off the Downpatrick parade as it seems to be a very family occasion but inevitably some will stumble out of pubs etc.
I think the excellent Kilcluney Flute Band (Markethill) marched in a St Patricks parade several years ago way down south and went down very well with the locals.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 02:42 PMI think the excellent Kilcluney Flute Band (Markethill) marched in a St Patricks parade several years ago way down south and went down very well with the locals.
The Matt Boyd Memorial Pipe Band, from Pomeroy, played in the New Ross festival last year and got a great reception
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:01 PMNo other participant gets that assurance, hence you won’t see a solitary Tricolour on display.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:01 PMLets be honest everyone knows what regalia an orange lodge wears, a sash or collarette - orange, blue or purple. Some wear bowler hats - why no one is really sure but anyway they do. They carry a banner with either a historical, religious, political or local scene or portrait and they carry flags including the union jack the Northern Ireland flag and i have seen the Scottish flag and the Canadian one too.
Incidentally it is a combination of these items not necessarily all of these that would be regarded as core to being an orange lodge in public. An orange lodge without sashes is just a group of men out for a walk!So identify which of these elements may be unacceptable to Nationalists and decide whether they are core to being an orange lodge in public. If they are core then the lodge is right if they are not core then the lodge is wrong.
We’ll have to see!
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:04 PMWhy would an orange lodge want to march somewhere that accepts them, sure they pride themselves in controversary and causing sectarian clashes, if they were told they could not march they would argue they have every right to ‘walk the queens highway’ and start a campaign to get through the town, no matter what assurances the lodge will be given they will not march unless someone tells them they cant.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:13 PM“The Matt Boyd Memorial Pipe Band, from Pomeroy, played in the New Ross festival last year and got a great reception”
Yep I know quite a few pipe bands who more typically parade on the 12th have paraded in recent years at St Patricks Days parades.
However I think it was a particularly brave step for the organisers to invite a very upfront loyalist band like Kilcluney to parade at their local event. And fair play to Kilcluney for accepting the invite.
“So identify which of these elements may be unacceptable to Nationalists and decide whether they are core to being an orange lodge in public. If they are core then the lodge is right if they are not core then the lodge is wrong.”
Total guess but I suspect the organisers were happy enough with the banner and sashes (would be pointless parading without them) but more reluctant for Union Flag, NI flag etc to be flown. Don’t they ban the tricolour at the Downpatrick parade and encourage the St Patricks flag?
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:18 PMRed Branch, I too would suspect that the Union Jack the Ulster Banner were at issue. No-one would invite an Orange Lodge and expect a bunch of sashless pedestrians to show to have a bit of a wander about in their jeans and T-shrit.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:26 PMIs this the kilcluney volunteers flute band ?
Does the colour party in that band carry UVF and YCV flags?
If the band does caryy those particular flags, would it be expecting to carry those flags at the St Patricks day parade?
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:30 PMit’s a pity the orange order can’t review this decision. somewhere along the line we have to become tolerant and accepting of each other’s cultural identities, which are no longer mutually exclusive. i believe the orange order taking part in this parade could be a small catalyst to improving understanding and toleration of each other’s identities.
true, the possibility of trouble exists but that would come from “the blue bag brigade”, tanked up on alcohol, who thuggishly attack anybody to prove their “manhood”.
i don’t believe republicans would orchestrate any trouble and would in fact welcome their participation.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:39 PMred branch: Some wear bowler hats - why no one is really sure but anyway they do.
I once heard that shipyard workers would buy a bowler when promoted to foreman. If you spent your day shouting up scaffolding at shirking rivetters, you would wear a hard hat too. And the foreman’s hat became part of the Sunday Best outfit. In the country, might it be copycat? Or maybe stable grooms were proud of their status too?
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:46 PMIt is a pity.
I thought from reading the MSM that the bigger concern was safety from the inevitable drunken louts.
It would be silly to invite them to come without their regalia. As someone else said, it would then just be a bunch of people having a walk.
The good (great) news is that this is being contemplated.Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:53 PM“Is this the kilcluney volunteers flute band ?
Does the colour party in that band carry UVF and YCV flags?
If the band does caryy those particular flags, would it be expecting to carry those flags at the St Patricks day parade?”
They are indeed. No idea about what exact flags they carry. Whenever I’ve seen them in the past I haven’t noticed such flags.
Think their band parade each June attracts massive crowds and close to 100 bands.
I remember at the time they said they paraded with all their normal regalia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_onyJFtp3_U&feature=related
There’s a youtube Kilcluney video there. You can study it and plenty others linked to it til yer suitably offended.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 03:54 PMDepends on which definition of Republican you use. The 1916 version or United Ireland supporting smicks, pished up on a day which is rapidy descending into a copy of the 12th. My money’s on trouble.
Lol Pete Belfast.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:00 PM‘Some wear bowler hats - why no one is really sure but anyway they do’
Seen this on the CAIN website ‘bowler hat is seen as the symbol of the British gentleman, and it has been suggested that it represents a symbol of authority as it was worn by the foreman on building sites or at the famous Belfast shipyards.’Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:01 PMJust out of curiosity, are individual lodges associated with particular branches of Christianity?
And are members of the COI called Anglicans?Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:04 PMMo calm yourself I was simply asking a question whether this band carries UVF and YCV flags and your jumping to the conclusion that Iam looking to be offended.
If I choose to be offended or unoffended dont worry I will let you know, but at least allow me to make that choice.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:06 PMyep, i can see where people are coming from regarding the Union Flag and the Northern Ireland Flag (thuough as a unionist I coould start the flag of the country arguement but not now) - I would even support the Cross of St patrick idea.
The question is are the Union Flag and the Northern Ireland Flag core to the identity of an Orange Lodge in public? As far as I can recollect most orange lodges don’t carry flags at the head of a lodge, just at the head of the parade - the district colour party.
Personally I don’t think that the mention flags are core to an Orange lodge identity in public. So if thats the problem then the Lodge should rethink, if that’s not the issue then???
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:11 PM“Mo calm yourself I was simply asking a question whether this band carries UVF and YCV flags and your jumping to the conclusion that Iam looking to be offended.
If I choose to be offended or unoffended dont worry I will let you know, but at least allow me to make that choice.”
Perfectly calm thanks! Although I happily admit I assumed from your original post that you were eager to jump on the offended bus.
From what I’ve seen Kilcluney aren’t one of the bands who embrace the whole UVK/YCV 1912 thing which I think is a wise move. However while I enjoy the flute bands I’m no expert about them so I’m open to correction.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:12 PMjoec
as far as i know lodges are denominationally mixed, some may be historically linked to a local church etc and therefore may draw the majority of their membership from that church but that won’t be exclusively the case.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:14 PMThats sound enough Mo, but I must admit I do have problems with UVF and YCV flags and the type of bands that carry those flags and flags in general if they are used and abused.
Red Branch I’m not sure that flags have a particular relevence to the Orange Order as the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the lodges based in the tewnty six counties dont seem to carry the tri colour.
The above is not a tongue in cheek comment but what i think is an honest observation.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:25 PMI’m sure the OO were just testing the water here.
Perhaps when their obvious attitudes to all things Irish soften, then they will be able to appreciate just how big a gesture it was by the organisers to invite a well known triumphalist hate group. Sometimes things like this have to be done to drag the Neanderthals where they are clearly not willing to go. So fair play to Downpatrick.
Politics was at play here, and the OO showed yet again that they are shite at it, even when the involuntary opponents(organisers) are not even playing. Symbols and flags indeed! Perhaps a positive in all of this is that any modernisers in the OO will have their hand strenghthened.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:28 PMSurely there are plenty of bands about. Would it not be possible for another band to take their place?
BTW we seem to have reached the usual question. Just what is the connection between the band and the Lodge? Does anyone know?
Sometimes we are told that the band and it’s regalia has nothing to do with the OO. This time we are being told that the regalia is a core element of what the Lodge is all about.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 04:53 PMIf the lodge is insisting on carrying the Union Flag I think they are being petty. Why don’t they take part but carry the St Patrick’s Cross?
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 05:00 PMlib2016
This is an Orange Lodge we’re talking about parading in Downpatrick, not a band.
Bands are not part of the Orange Order organisation. An Orange lodge asks a band to lead it on the 12th for example. Many bands have been specifically formed to lead a lodge however not in all cases. Most bands and their lodges have been marching together for decades.
Some bands will only parade at Orange parades while for others the Orange parades are only a small minority of their parades.
Posted by on Jan 18, 2008 @ 05:09 PM
