Friday, March 16, 2007
Memorial breaches equality provisions…
The sighting of memorials relating to the troubles are problematic in Northern Ireland. Mostly, they get decided on the simple basis of who is in the local majority. But now, it seems, Omagh Council has landed itself in a spot of hot water with the Equality Commission, for ignoring its own equality provisions, regarding the erection of a memorial on the landmark site of the Dromore Old Church to the Hunger Strikers of 1981.
Update: It seems that the Old Church is Church of Ireland: which surely begs the question why this site was chosen in the first place?
The Commission not only questioned this single breach, but of a wider systematic council policy:
...the Commission said the Council should hold an equality impact assessment on implications of its policies from 2001 to the present that permitted the memorial to remain on its property, and which proactively encouraged the group considered to have erected it to apply to have the land transferred to it.
The assessment should also look at the implications of any proposed policy that would allow the memorial to remain on the site in the future - and any proposed policy to dispose of the land to a third party to ensure the memorial is retained.
Mick Fealty @ 01:10 PM
The Equality Commission is correct. There should be a systematic policy on this and it should apply retrospectively. After all if people can apply for planning retrospectively, it should also be possible to do a retrospective eqia on memorials.
After Dromore is knocked down, we should proceed immediately to do an EQIA on Carson’s Statue at Stormont, the Cenotaph in Belfast City Centre, the various other official and unofficial memorials throughout the north.
When they’re all knocked, as they haven’t been eqia-ed and it’s unlikely that they would pass muster if eqia-ed in the current climate, we should commission a world famous artist and build a memorial wall like the one in Washington.
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 01:30 PMWhen is a memorial not a memorial?
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 01:40 PMI think Mick is onto something here: if these things remained sight unseen we’d all be better off. Perhaps planning regs. could include a clause requiring any monument to be staffed around the clock so that blinkers/rose-tinted glasses could be handed out to passers-by?
Do republicans really think that putting up more of these things will advance the goal of a united Ireland?
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 01:43 PMI can see where this thread will possibly lead.
We shall call it, ‘Whatabout’
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 01:48 PMYokel,
I hope not. I’m not sure that they should be subject to equality provisions (which I think is the point Oili is making), but the council appears to be in breach of guidelines it brought in itself (unless I’m mistaken).
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 01:52 PM“I can see where this thread will possibly lead.
We shall call it, ‘Whatabout’ “
Yokel - why the use of future tense - we got there on post 1.
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 02:00 PMI listened with amusement to the republican entertainer Barry McIlduff on today’s Talkback.
He rambled at length on the subject, throwing in the odd gem about second-class citizens and retrospective planning permission.
The irony of course is that he’s defending this memorial to Bobby Sands, a brave if misguided individual, whose sacrifice resulted in nothing more than a SF electoral mandate and fat British salaries for Gerry & Martin.
His supposedly forward thinking party make a career out of digging up the past and annoying their Unionist ‘equals’ at every opportunity.
All this divisive detrius should be removed ASAP (and yes that includes Carson), otherwise our grandchildren will still be wrangling about this stuff on yeoldslugger.com.Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 02:02 PMSo what’s the difference between Edward Carson, who was involved in the establishment of the UVF, and Bobby Sands, an MP?
The entire point behind the complaint to the Equality Commission was ‘what aboutery’ but what the complainant forgot, of course, was that he was complaing to the EQUALITY commission and, therefore, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
I don’t see why the vast array of memorials should be subject to an EQIA and, if found to be in breach, knocked. Then we would have an imperative to erect a memorial to all those who, in their various ways, got involved and fell victim to the Troubles, and I’m reaching back to the 1800s or further here....
Far better to have a memorial which could become an iconic attraction rather than what are ugly and unsightly memorials around the place, including the Carson statues and the Hs dotted around the six counties.
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 02:23 PMLets summarise.
Council fucked up, thought it was being clever. Found out.
Done.
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 02:26 PMSomeone has just brought to my attention the fact that the old Church was Church of Ireland.
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 05:41 PM“Someone has just brought to my attention the fact that the old Church was Church of Ireland.”
I thought that was understood. Your link describes that it is “thought” to have been built in the early 17th century, which is another way of saying that it is Church of Ireland.
Why do they want to knock it down? From the picture supplied it looks like a grand old ruin.
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 06:51 PMWas planning permission sought sought for the Plantation of Ulster and if not will the DUP be now making a retrospective application?
Posted by on Mar 16, 2007 @ 09:23 PMWhich Plantation? Lowland Scots or Celts - who was here first is always bettter fun than whataboutery!
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 01:01 AMWhat a load of nonsense… there are Cenotaphs, Union Jacks et al all over the feckin place… sure we’ll rip them down as well will we?
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 04:53 AM“So what’s the difference between Edward Carson, who was involved in the establishment of the UVF, and Bobby Sands, an MP?”
well let’s see.
Firstly the UVF was a legal organisation which did not kill anyone-certainly not on Carson’s watch, no matter what people claim about the 1920 period.
Secondly Carson was a figurehead,and not even a member of the UVF, unlike the boul’ Bobby who was an enthusiatic volunteer and courageous..er, burner of heavily armed MI5 operated furniture stores to persuade me I needed to be set me free when I was happy to be enslaved by perfidious Albion.Oh, and most importantly Carson won. Poor Bobby’s still six feet under the United Kingdom, a mouldering British subject. I think they even rebuilt the furniture store.
As far as memorials are concerned, the Provos have form for this type of thing. The memorial in Dungiven is on council owned ground outside the Church of Ireland , which nationalist controlled Limavady Borough Council ignore by claiming they don’t have any title deeds to the site- yet they’ve always maintained the grounds. Unlike Dromore this is an active church building.
Castlewellan also has an IRA memorial outside the Church of ireland.It always amuses me that the IRA is so desperate for legitimacy that it ...apes the evil British from whom it strove to be free in its ceremonials. Shome mishtake shurely? Would not these keltic warriors not be more true to their pretend heritage by doing something more spiritual, like planting a fairy thorn, or chucking a sword in a lough in memory of the dear departed?
And olly, even if the sub-kitsch style of these memorials cons you and some others into thinking they are “art”, I doubt they’ll attract many tourists.
I make no direct comparison but perhaps Barry the Leprachaun would be a bit annoyed if the Orange order started erecting arches outside chapels. Cos then he could be a victim all over again- something themmuns are forbidden to be
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 10:38 AMSo what’s the difference between Edward Carson, who was involved in the establishment of the UVF, and Bobby Sands, an MP?
The main difference - in addition to darth’s points - of course, is that the UVF had (using today’s parlance) a clear “mandate” and was accountable to the democratically-elected representatives of the unionist people. It therefore enjoyed democratic legitimacy.
The Provisional IRA had no such “mandate” and therefore no legitimacy.
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 10:45 AMThere’s another layer of complication which relates directly to Sinn Fein’s manifesto. That, as Pam Tilson recently highlighted, explicitly ties their interpretation of ‘Shared Future’ objectives to equality measures. This would appear to be a case of the party’s councillors flying in the face not simply of their own council’s regulations, but official party policy.
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 12:12 PMTerrorist leader Edward Carson was quite prepared to use terrorism against the British government. If he is to be remembered so should other terrorists who stood up to the British government.
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 12:31 PMPolitical parties having private armies legitimate - Unionist!
whatever next?
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 04:01 PMVery good point Mick. An early test of how Sinn Fein will treat such sentiments in practice.
Admittedly, an IRA memorial in the grounds of a CofI church would seem to be a bit of a no-brainer, but we shall see…
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 04:10 PMFAO JG
“Terrorist leader Edward Carson was quite prepared to use terrorism against the British government. If he is to be remembered so should other terrorists who stood up to the British government.
Posted by JG on Mar 17, 2007 @ 12:31 PM”
What? If you wish to tag a person as a terrorist then that is your prerogative. Please remind me and others what terrorist act was perpetrated by Edward Carson?
And on request, I will provide you with the terrorist acts perpetrated by Eamon de valara.
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 05:22 PMPeter Brown, I suppose all that stuff about the research showing the Irish not being celtic at all and having been here for at least five thousand years must have passed you by.
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 08:13 PMWhere are these Carson statues, btw?
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 08:53 PMCarson seems to get a bad rap from the chuckies, and is the victim of some serious hype on the part of the unionists. Wikipedia reads :
He continued to lead the Unionists, but when the Government of Ireland Act 1920 was introduced, advised his party to work for the exemption of six Ulster counties from Home Rule as the best compromise (a compromise he had previously rejected).
and ..
Carson disliked many of Ulster’s local characteristics and in particular the culture of Orangeism. He stated that their speeches reminding him of the unrolling of a mummy. All old bones and rotten rags.
Posted by on Mar 17, 2007 @ 10:35 PMNo but if they’ve only been here for 5000 years who was here before them????
Posted by on Mar 18, 2007 @ 12:59 AM
