Wednesday, June 28, 2006
McGuinness: Free Presbyterian Taliban…
Martin McGuinness is clearly gunning for the DUP in the propaganda war. His latest line is to characterise the Free Presbyterians in the DUP as the Taliban. Hmmm… Can’t see it taking off somehow… The wider news agenda is likely to throw the comparison into an awkward light: for example, here and here.
Mick Fealty @ 06:04 AM
“Republican play the appropriation game,.....”
“If people are judged by the company they keep, then Sinn Fein is damned..”
My point was that Sinn Fein has allies worldwide. Tafkabo has lied and justified his lie with an unverifiable anecdote. Stalford has missed the point, and managed to prove that Taf was a liar while doing so. Unionists just don’t get it, but then if they did they wouldn’t be unionists! ;-)
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:15 PMTAFKABO: “When Loyalist kill catholics, it’s sectarian.
When Republicans kill Protestants, it’s a detail.
Do keep up. “
Ah, but did the Republicans kill them for any other reason than simply being Protestant? Therein lies the rub. When you review the dubious stewardship the English and Scots have excercised over those parts of Ireland under their power, the line the used to seperate the sheep from the goats was almost always religion. Additionally, the disproportionate number of non-combatants killed by the various and sundry Loyalist “defense” associations would seem to indicate that their operational orders did include the notion that “any Taig would do.” In other words, historically, The Loyalist / Unionist / British side of the equation has almost always had a sectarian element.
The Republicans are a little bit more mixed. I cannot and will not defend the bombing campaign, esp. on soft targets. However, when PIRA attacked overwhelmingly Protestant police, especially in the earlier years of the campaign, were they being sectarian or were they simply attacking physical manifestation of the state’s violence and oppression? Where they to attack a police car with two constable, one Catholics and one Protestant, are you honestly suggesting that one murder was sectarian and the other wasn’t?
I would argue that the conflict was PRIMARILY political, with sectarian overtones, for the Republicans and PRIMARILY sectarian with political overtones for the Loyalist. The numbers and types of casualties, along with the lack of strong Loyalist political parties would tend to support this thesis, although I confess there is no statistical support, just mine own observations. The Republicans primarily attacked those who enforced the state’s will and the Loyalists primarily attacked non-combatant populace.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:18 PMMy point was that Sinn Fein has allies worldwide.
I thought your point was that the whole world hates Unionists with a passion.
Tafkabo has lied and justified his lie with an unverifiable anecdote.
Hmm.
You honestly think you are free to makes claims about what the whole world thinks, but then complain that me telling stories of my firsthand experiences are unverifiable?
When did I lie?
If you cannot prove that I have lied, please withdraw the claim, it does nothing for discussions when you allow yourself to come down to this level .
Stalford has missed the point, and managed to prove that Taf was a liar while doing so. Unionists just don’t get it, but then if they did they wouldn’t be unionists! ;-)
Well, given your rather petulant outburst and since this is ostensibly a thread about religious belief, it’s seems appropriate to quote Thomas More at this point.“The devil… the prowde spirit… cannot endure to be mocked.”
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:25 PMlib2016
“My point was that Sinn Fein has allies worldwide”
Perhaps. But look at them - with friends like that….
Oh I almost forgot, they are in the same grouping in the European Parliament as the communists who ran Eastern Europe through a regime of brutal repression and political assasination of dissidents. What was Bob saying about the Gestapo? The Shinners are allied to the people who brought us the Stasi!
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:26 PMGerry Adams, Erich Honeker and Nicolaue Caucescue - fellow travellers.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:28 PMfair_deal: “When was this war declared? Who by? Was it within the limitations of the UN Charter? “
One could argue the de facto declaration of war was received by the Catholic community on Bloody Sunday, although any of the violence against the NICRA marchers could be construed as providing evidence of the state’s intent vis-a-vis the Catholic minority.
fair_deal: “Care to provide the location of the gas chambers the RUC sent people to?”
Historically inaccurate, as the camps were the province of the Allegemeine-SS (sp?), not the Gestapo, who were primarily “secret police.” I do seem to recall internment camps, although these were more akin to the English “concentration camps” of the Boer War than German camps of the Second World War. all in all, a hasty lunge met with clumsy parry.
However, were Bob to riposte, juxtaposing the B-Specials with the stree-brawlers of the S.A. or some other similar organization, I think he would be nearer the mark than your clumsy thrust.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:32 PM“Where people praying in a church fair game? What about people attending a dog show? Did they deserve to die also? Comments like yours show me the true nature of the republican mindset - its utterly disgusting.”
But, when all is said and done, the PIRA killed 516 civilians and the British security forces and the death squads killed 1.064—better than 2 doe 1.
And dead is dead, whether by bullet, bomb or fire. You cite two horrific incidents but, then, you turn around and ignore the horrors of the Shankill Butchers.
I say the unionist attitude in ignoring the horrendous killings of the security forces and the unionist death squads is utterly disgusting and I can say that with far more justification than you have for saying the same about the republican killings.
DC laid it out very clearly, IMHO. But, face it, Christopher: there cannot really be any lasting peace in NI until unionism faces up to and admits its own failings and guilt and puts it violent thugs out of business. As long as people like you continue to demonize the PIRA and ignore the demons in your own community, I don’t believe true peace is possible.
I have said it before and I say it again to unionists: Clean up your own act before you insist that others clean up theirs.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:36 PMDread
The B-Specials are to be compared with the SA now? This would be the SA, the same SA that was part of the NAZI movement, the same NAZI movement supported by the IRA during the war? I remember reading in the book about Joe Cahill that he and his comrades being held in the Crum, cheered when news came through of NAZI victories on the radio. Lovely people these Shinners, really they are in the same league as Martin Luther King, don’t ya know?
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:38 PMbob
I utterly, completely and totally condemn ALL paramilitaries and there disgusting campaigns. They are beneath contempt. So don’t try this holier-than-thou nonsense with me. Anyone who knows me, knows full well my attitude towards the thugs on both sides of our community.
You are attempting to justify Kingsmills, Darkley and La Mon. What about Enniskillen? Was it legitimate because as well as killing civilians there was the off-chance that soldiers would be killed also? You disgust me.
As to the actions of the Army and the RUC here - if they intercepted terrorists out on a mission to kill people and destroy property, they have and will continue to have my full support.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:43 PMbob mcgowan, yes, dead is dead.
So why are you categorising people into civilians to suit your silly argument?
The IRA killed far more than anyone else,, and a fair number of cathlics who they were supposed to be defending.
The stupidity of nationalists who still havent woken up to the ira’s fat profits and control of criminality is staggering.
And lastly; Unionists like me do not vote for paramilitaries. Unlike your community we believe in democracy and are against violence.Until the nationalist community get rid of the IRA and STOP voting for murdering scum, then you are right; there will never be peace indeed.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:47 PM“the Gestapo, who were primarily “secret police.”
Until the civic police were folded into the Gestapo during WW2 (1943, IIRC) the Gestapo’s task was to suppress political dissent, i.e. they had no dealings with ordinary criminal acts. They were the “secret police”/
My point is that the RUC were both political and criminal police—and, IMO, that’s not a good combination.
Here in the US, ordinary criminal acts are the province of local police forces under local control and most crime is treated in State courts under State law by State judges.
Though it provides services to local police—basically forensics—the FBI is the counter espionage and counter terrorist police here with relatively little involvement in “orinary” criminal acts.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 02:51 PMDC
“Historically inaccurate, as the camps were the province of the Allegemeine-SS (sp?), not the Gestapo, who were primarily “secret police.”
1.I didn’t say the gestapo managed the camps I said sent people to
2. Also the management of camps is not as clear cut as you try to claim
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/mar2000/ger1-m17.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp_Theresienstadt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjica_concentration_camp
3. The separation you imply is also a false impression. The security structures of the German state meant the Gestapo working in full partnership with and accountable to the SS.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-gestapo.htm
A notable quote from this article
“Section B4 of the Gestapo dealt exclusively with the “Jewish question” http://www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaust/nazi1944.shtml
You might also like to read the transcript of the interrogation of a Gestapo member, he thought the Gestapo’s hands were clean too
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/imt/nca/supp-b/ftp.py?imt/nca/supp-b//nca-sb-02-kaltenbrunner.06
A gestapo directive ordered
“September 9…Polish citizens who behave improperly are to be assigned to special sections at Dachau.
“http://www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaust/nazi1939.shtml
Another example
In the early morning of 10th November, 1938, Heydrich sent a telegram to all offices of the Gestapo and SD giving instructions for the organisation of the pogroms of that date and instructing them to arrest as many Jews as the prisons could hold “especially rich ones,”
Also that
“A special detachment from Gestapo headquarters in the RSHA was used to arrange for the deportation of Jews from Axis satellites to Germany for the “final solution.”
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/judgment/j-accused-organisations-03-02.htmlPosted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:03 PM“I utterly, completely and totally condemn ALL paramilitaries and there disgusting campaigns. They are beneath contempt. So don’t try this holier-than-thou nonsense with me. Anyone who knows me, knows full well my attitude towards the thugs on both sides of our community.”
Maybe so, but you are here demonizing the PIRA and totally ignoring the far worse record of HMG and unionists. I haven’t seen any comment from you telling us the unionism has its demons and that it should get rid of them. You are very careully ignoring the 800 lb canary in the room
You are attempting to justify Kingsmills, Darkley and La Mon. What about Enniskillen? Was it legitimate because as well as killing civilians there was the off-chance that soldiers would be killed also? You disgust me.’
I have made absolutely no attempt here to justify any PIRA killings of civilians. Feel free to point any such justifications out. If you can’t—and you can’t—I suggest you withdraw the comment.
“As to the actions of the Army and the RUC here - if they intercepted terrorists out on a mission to kill people and destroy property, they have and will continue to have my full support.
We are NOT talking about guerrillas (to use the correct term) on a mission against a military target, but about the Army and RUC killing civilians, i.e. innocent bystanders, and helping the death squads to kill civilians.
Please address the issues raised.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:03 PMBob - I have already shown that your figures are nonsensical as you group all loyalists and british forces together, and yet isolate the pIRA from all other republicans. Also, if you look closer at the Sutton figures, you will see that ex-military personnel (i.e. retired or now working as a milkman etc.) do not count as civilians. Neither do prison guards.
It is correct that the IRA killed less civilians than the loyalists or british as a proportion of their overall killing; but their targets wore nice uniforms that made them easy to identify and walked into the very areas where they could be most easily targetted. That they then still killed more civilians than any other identifiable group (no, I’m not going to lump them all together) shows the nature of the beast.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:03 PMHow did we get from Martin McGuinness to the Gestapo in two pages? It should only take one.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:04 PMbob
An American are you? Well, if you hail from the land of the free, or even if you reside there, how do you feel your neighbours would react to the fact that Sinn Fein is in cahoots with the Communists that suppressed democracy in Eastern Europe for forty years?
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:05 PM“I would argue that the conflict was PRIMARILY political, with sectarian overtones, for the Republicans and PRIMARILY sectarian with political overtones for the Loyalist”
Well of course you would. It makes it easier to justify the acts of republicans instead of seeing all murders as murder. And you might take comfort in asll the nauseating statements from PIRA about killings such as Jean McConville, a spy, and the dozens of “mistakes” like the family of 3 blown up at Killeen. Oh, and the off duty policemen and UDR soldiers weren’t milkmen, busdrivers, teachers and students. No uniform, no weapon-no problem!
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:07 PMdarth
well said
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:09 PM“One could argue the de facto declaration of war was received by the Catholic community on Bloody Sunday, although any of the violence against the NICRA marchers could be construed as providing evidence of the state’s intent vis-a-vis the Catholic minority. “
One could also argue that the de facto declaration of war was received by the Unionist community when Dublin armed PIRA in 1970, and thus the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were a legitimate act. But one wouldn’t, would one?
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:10 PMBob,
What do you think about FARC?
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:15 PMThis is the most enjoyable thread for ages.
They don’t like it up em.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:21 PMStalford has now connected Irish republicanism to both Nazism and Communism. The British government had peace treaties with both regimes so perhaps Bush should get the bombers ready - hell, the Brits even have oil so they definitely need the Bush treatment.
Tafkabo,
People don’t hate unionists. There’s nothing wrong with the average unionist that wouldn’t be cured by a short spell in a re-education camp. (That’s a joke, by the way!) My point, however imperfectly made is that unionism has passed it’s sell by date. The British Empire is over, gone, defunct, a dead Empire. I’m not even going to try to make that point with Stalford so please realise that I do believe there is hope for you! ;-)
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:22 PMpith,
How did we get from Martin McGuinness to the GestapoIs Gestapo the name for the Sinn Fein Restorative Justice programme? I noticed they’ve an article on Garda Reform http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/180 but don’t see the PSNI or RUC mentioned on this page http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/justice about their policies on Justice & the Community.
Will this discussion move on from Martin McGuinness to the Gestapo to the Gardai…PSNI…Women http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/women
Martin McGuinness and women who are and have been the women in his life and are they treated the same way the Taliban treat their women?Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:32 PMlib
A nice attempt at a side-step, but foolish nonetheless. You were the person telling us all about these great international pals of the Republican Movement, don’t get angry at me for wanting to discuss who the Shinners have kept company with/keep company with now.
So Sinn Fein’s allies down through theie history have included:
Nazi Germany
The Farc
The PLO
Colonel Ghadaffi
Castro
ETA
The former communist rulers of Eastern EuropeHave I missed anyone?
Yes Bob, I’m sure your American friends would find this very interesting.
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:51 PMlib2016
Can you point to any of my comments that have been inaccurate on this thread?
Posted by on Jun 29, 2006 @ 03:53 PM
