Tuesday, February 19, 2008
Maze first favourite for stadium site…
The Press Association has a copy of the conclusions of a Price Waterhouse reportt on the viability of the plans to convert the Maze prison site into a sport stadium. The report was commissioned by the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure, Edwin Poots, a strong supporter of the Maze plan. However the report is with the Minister of Finance who is sure to give those figures a thorough going over.
Key Figures:
- first four years operation cost £37m.
- a 38,500-seat stadium
-hosting 23 major sporting and music events par
- just under 500,000 paying spectators.
It would appear to be the Maze or nothing…
Mick Fealty @ 07:18 PM
Crazy stuff - £240m for a stadium to be used 23 days a year?
Surely even our MLAs couldn’t agree to that?
This is irrelevant. The question is if it would make money. If the loss is only £37 million over the first four years, then the answer to that is likely to be yes over the long term. There is also spinoff activity because of this, the private developers are given land in the area to develop.
It should also be pointed out they aren’t relying on all of those events to sell out. 500/35 ~ 14, and 25-27 events are suggested. My doubt would be whether they could pull in enough music acts of sufficient quality to fill the stadium, particularly with a number of venues in Belfast in competition.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 09:54 AMIf the loss is only £37 million over the first four years,
So you believe the stadium will generate £203m in 4 years?
How?!
If the stadium is going to make money, why is the Government proposing to build it, and not the private sector?
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 09:58 AMAs a non-practising CLG member, (4 County medals at underage), I strongly oppose the GAA involvment in this stadium.
1. I believe it is a breach of the GAA constitution to use a facility where the fundamental aspect of our Gaelic culture, the Gaelic language will be banned.
2. Gaelic football is in simple direct competition with Rugby and Soccer, more power to them but the GAA should concentrate on the development of the associations own facilities, where the GAA is more than a mere guest.
3. It is pointless to be involved in any development which does not significantly increase the numbers of people who will be able to view the games. In the end I predict the stadium would be quite small.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 09:59 AM“I know this is off-topic, but I’m surprised that no-one on this site has posted a piece about Kosovo. Given the obvious parallels with NI, I thought this would be a must for Slugger!”
CW I agree. Although I hear there is one Northern Irish blog giving Kosovo plenty of coverage. ;-)
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 10:13 AMAs a non-practising CLG member
What is CLG?
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 10:19 AMSo you believe the stadium will generate £203m in 4 years?
How?!
Why ask for a business plan if you are merely going to dismiss its findings? Presumably if it gets the 500,000 people through the doors it will generate the income it needs.
The question is if it will make it’s numbers, realistically. Otherwise, could you produce your business plan that shows otherwise?
I have no doubt that it will overrun cost and I have no particular desire for a new stadium to be anywhere: I don’t follow NI football, Rugby or the GAA that much and there are few stadium filling bands I like. But a lot of the criticisms here are not objective.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 10:29 AMWhy ask for a business plan if you are merely going to dismiss its findings?
I didn’t ask for a business plan.
Presumably if it gets the 500,000 people through the doors it will generate the income it needs.
£203m in 4 years? That’s over £50m each year!
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 10:40 AMPoots is a rucking fool with his foul comments over the Ulster Titans. What a total flanker.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 10:52 AMThere are some other reasons why I don’t see this Maze thing working:
Croke Park holds 3-4 concerts a year, yet the Maze expects to hold 11.
Croke Park/Lansdowne/Wembley etc. all had corporate boxes that were in high demand. I simply cannot see any major demand for corporate boxes to see the games that will be on show at the Maze.
Croke Park managed to get over 2 million people through its gates in 2007, hosting four Ireland soccer matches, two Six Nations games, four concerts and 25 days of GAA games.
A sports stadium cannot survive on concerts and if a Dublin one with a much larger catchment area can’t then one in Belfast won’t either.
It’s taking this level of sporting activity to make Croke Park a profitable venture and let’s not forget that Croke Park cost just 260 million euros (Maze = 400 million)and its own debt was less than 100 million.
Willowfield,
Cumann Lúthchleas Gael. It’s Irish for Joe Duffy.Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 10:52 AMShould read “In the region of Belfast” in the above post obviously.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 11:04 AMapart from the groundswell of opposition within GAA circles, especially in the North of Ireland to sharing a ground with other sports….whilst WE have better more accessible venues..
The only way the GAA has soothed the fears and discontent over this issue…..is by promising only 2 or 3 games are played(if any)with the likelihood that these will either be friendly meaningless games….
No major final club or county will be staged….
White elephant.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 11:10 AMI didn’t ask for a business plan.
Really, critics of the maze have been asking for nothing else.
£203m in 4 years? That’s over £50m each year!
Really? They didn’t teach me division at school. As well as tickets sales, you have all the associated sales when people come to the ground and you also have sponsorship money for the name of the ground. I’m sure there is more. Whether that all stacks up I couldn’t be sure, but George is doing a much better job at convincing me with figures than you are going £200 million!!?? Really!!!??
George
Are there figures for Croke Park Revenue / Profit for those 2 million visitors?
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 11:11 AMThe project involves the GAA Providing over 50% of the gate receipts.
Makes you wonder why the other sports want a stadium at all, when the have no mission of every attracting the supporters to fill it.
Its laughable that a part of the politicised football crowd think they can dictate to the majority of sports fans,especially when the local game is played in glorified farm yards and the association can’t even take money, even when its being given away free.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 11:12 AM“White elephant”
True, but much cross community consensus achieved on the isssue.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 11:12 AMDiluted Orange - “The fact is that the infrastructure is not there for a 30,000 seater stadium to be located at the Maze.”
Agreed. That’s one of the reasons Belfast is a better option.
Twinbrook - “Why would the GAA want to use this…. When they`ve spent a fortune on Casement Park…A more acceptable venue….where symbols of our Irish identity….wil not offend the Neanderthal burgers of the township of Lisburn…..”
I also don’t see any need for GAA involvement. But no matter where the GAA play, they should drop their foreign flag and foreign anthem as well as their politics if they want to be part of a shared NI. However, no need for your sectarianism/racism regarding Unionists.
It’s clear that Poots and Donaldson support the Terrorist Shrine as it will be in their back yard - and they can’t see past it.
As Dodds said, the so-called ‘conflict transformation centre’ would become a shrine to the Sinn Fein PIRA murderers and “something unionist people cannot accept”. It would be nice for the DUP to get their act together instead of chuckling with Sinn Fein PIRA murderers at Stormont.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 11:23 AMI’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - the only people who will make any significant profit from this are the consultants.
Scrap the whole stupid idea, divide what kitty there is three ways between the sporting organisations for their own use and please God spare us all from having to pay through the nose for the “Shared Future” nonsense.
Seriously, how much that has been wasted so far, could’ve gone to education, health or any other vital service?
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 12:22 PM“But no matter where the GAA play, they should drop their foreign flag and foreign anthem as well as their politics if they want to be part of a shared NI.”
Shared…as in 50years of one party Fascist rule at Stormont!
Or shared as in, taigs lie down!
Shared as in, No Catholics need apply!
Shared as in, Accept you`re British and shut the f**k up…
Shared as in, Burn every vestige off your Irish identity..
Glad that you`re idea of a shared future will never happen AGAIN.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 12:31 PM‘they should drop their foreign flag and foreign anthem as well as their politics’
Perhaps the IFA should drop the English anthem & unionist flag, stop interferring in the rights of Irishmen to represent their country on the international football stage & start disciplining teams who commemorate terrorists - Irvine & Glentoran
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 12:33 PMGEORGE
Croke Park holds 3-4 concerts a year, yet the Maze expects to hold 11.
I wonder on what basis they are estimating 11.
Cumann Lúthchleas Gael.
Is that the Gaelic League? What are you implying by your reference to Joe Duffy?
KENSEI
Really, critics of the maze have been asking for nothing else.
Maybe some have, but I haven’t. The money spent on consultants in respect of this nonsense is nothing short of an outrage.
As well as tickets sales, you have all the associated sales when people come to the ground and you also have sponsorship money for the name of the ground. I’m sure there is more. Whether that all stacks up I couldn’t be sure, but George is doing a much better job at convincing me with figures than you are going £200 million!!?? Really!!!??
You “couldn’t be sure” that the stadium could generate £50m each year … but above you said you “presumed” that it would. Why do you make that presumption?
PACMAN
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - the only people who will make any significant profit from this are the consultants.
Absolutely – and they are already have made a pretty penny.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 12:40 PMKensei,
I didn’t put forward any revenue figures (but will now), just the numbers going through Croke Park and the debt the stadium has to service.In 2004, in some circles they were talking about a “crippling” debt when the figure was just under 100 million.
But the GAA gave out a bridging grant and the Cusack corporate boxes brought in 22 million.
I’ve checked up (article linked below) and in 2006, Croke Park recorded an operating profit of €16.9 million from a turnouver of 30.3 million, which was broadly in line with the previous year.Thanks to the Six Nations and Euro 2008 qualifiers they were expecting to double operating profits to between €33 million and €35 million for 2007.
Attendances at the Croke Park museum increased from 20,000 to 75,000 for the first 10 months of 2007 with a lot of rugby fans taking the tour.
To date, the GAA has provided loans totalling €43.4 million to the stadium’s holding company to help fund the development of the stadium.
2006 was the first year that the stadium was in a position to start repaying this money. It will pay back €6 million a year for the next ten years.
The holding company’s bank debt is now €37.7 million, down from 98 million three years ago.
But Croke Park is also a major conference centre, hosting an average of three events each week.
In 2006, revenue from conferencing and events increased by 35 per cent to €3.4 million and the GAA has been 10 million buying up sites near the stadium.
There was only one gig in 2007 because they say it is very hard to find acts big enough to play Croke Park.
So what we see here is that Croke Park, which is over twice as big as the Maze would be and has four times as many punters coming through a city centre location in a city three times the size of Belfast made an operating profit of 16 million euros in 2006 and 33 million in 2007 thanks to a perfect storm of the top rugby, soccer and GAA games being hosted there.
How on earth do they expect the Maze to pay back the equivalent of 300 million euros in 5 years when Croke Park hosting all the big games on the island in all sports could only managed to pay back 150 million and in normal times would only be able to generate 75 million.
How do they think there are 11 major events out there for the Maze when Croke Park works on 1-3?
It simply doesn’t add up.
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/09/02/story26300.asp
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 12:53 PMVery useful info, George
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 12:59 PMI suspect the money to be repaid at the end of the four years reflect income from sponsorship etc being accounted for, that 36 million over say 10 years would still result in fans of whatever ilk paying £6-8 on top of normal ticket prices. Question is will the sports using the stadium rent it at a flat rate or on a percentage of ticket sales?
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 01:07 PMI suspect the money to be repaid at the end of the four years reflect income from sponsorship etc being accounted for, that 36 million over say 10 years would still result in fans of whatever ilk paying £6-8 on top of normal ticket prices.
Sponsorship income + ticket revenues - revenue costs will total £203m after 4 years??
Question is will the sports using the stadium rent it at a flat rate or on a percentage of ticket sales?
I believe each sport has to guarantee to pay a set annual amount (different for each sport), above which they can retain revenue.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 01:19 PMOne of the most disturbing parts of this whole shambles is the refusal of the local media to do any kind of realistic analysis of the situation and have instead danced to first the NIO’s and now Poot’s tune.
I’ll be very surprised if we see the figures George quotes above in any of the local media outlets after the publicatoon of this report.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 01:21 PMDenial, self-delusion and bullshit are the three pillars of the Northern Ireland economy. Why should this be any different?
Heard the UUJ bod on Nolan this morning wittering on about the ‘relative strength’ of the Northern Ireland economy meaning the biggest house price frenzy in history was going to be followed by a mild correction rather than a full on crash. ‘Relative strength’ compared to what, I wondered? Uzbekistan? Hey, let’s just forget that the reason we have an economy at all is because tax payers in Hampshire and Surrey are paying for our civil service non-jobs. As I said, denial, self-delusion and bullshit.
Posted by on Feb 20, 2008 @ 02:02 PM
