Friday, March 07, 2008
Mairead Farrell a Trojan Horse?
Given how ridiculous the idea of celebrating Mairead Farrell at Stormont was, which even the most devoted Sinn Fein supporter had trouble getting their heads around as a great idea, was the whole thing a trojan horse to arrive at this destination instead, which has already had a test-run in Limavady?
SF may seek to ban unionist symbols at Stormont and SF anger over IRA commemoration ban
Or is that just a face-saving exercise after a spectacularly daft suggestion?
What do you think of the tactic of pursuing “neutral space” - is it worth the bother, does it have any true meaning, is it a whitewash, rather than a co-writing of, of a shared history, is it a petulant idea, or a responsible one? Is there a difference between a shared space and a neutral one? Does this have any relevance to ordinary people’s lives? Is it a chimera for real progress, much like the arguments over symbols on the PSNI’s caps or flags in City Hall closets were? Or is it the sort of groundwork that reflects progress?
Rusty Nail @ 08:57 AM
thanks willow, now we know, the only history that matters is the unionist ‘version’.
Good man.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 02:28 PMWillowfield you seem to be cacooned in your own wee world and if your views are prevelant then I honestly think that this is an issue which could sadly go on well past its sell by date.
I did not allude to any thing remotely near what your perception is, of what I stated in relation to Joe Devlin
James Connolly was one of the most important people who shaped republican, socialist politics in Ireland as well as being one of the main trade unioinist figures in the country.
As to Winifred Carney being obscure and no noe having heard of her Ithink thats a sad reflection as she was the first Sinn Féin representitive to stand in East Belfast she also a prominant memeber of the ITGWU in Belfast as well as being a memeber of the Irish Citizen Army.
You atste that republicans are not very important in the history of this state.
I would say you’re wrong there as one such republican who by his own admission was the OC of the Derry Brigade of the IRA at one point is presently your Deputy First Minister, so Iwould say he and the republican movement are fairly important in the present day set up in Stormont.Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 02:42 PMTHE SHADOW
er ever hear of irony?Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 02:44 PMYes, last time this issue was discussed on this site (in relation to Nationalist symbols at Belfast City Hall- or, to be precise, the distinct lack of), one of the Unionist bloggers here decided a bust of Gerry Fitt would be anappropriate concession to the city’s other community.
Quite. As much as I disagree with what Fitt came to stand for, I don’t necessarily think that recognising him in Stormont is necessarily a bad thing: simply inadequate. Things are that imbalanced at Stormont that a range of Nationalist figures need recognised, and that includes some with who Unionism is going to be uncomfortable with.
It’s not lie we aren’t. There’s a statue of Carson there FFS!
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 02:45 PMPeace&Justice;Edwin Poots doesn’t have any responsbility over the flying of the Union Flag over public buildings. That’s controlled by the Flags Order and a reserved matter.
Frankly I think its quite good that Poots was off telling the Irish Language People that they don’t have a chance of getting their little Act.. Good on him.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 02:59 PMLet’s be specific then.
We know that Carson’s statue isn’t coming down so that means we have to erect another one, same scale and all that.
So who? Someone from the same era? Collins?
Someone from the modern era? If it has to be an IRA leader, Adams is ruled out. Who then?Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:01 PMRumour has it that the Unionists may if pushed make an exeption and possibly accept a statue of Denis Donaldson, Freddie Scappaticci or Roy Mc Shane.
Sure were’nt they all nearly on the same side
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:07 PM“You don’t get to pick for us.”
And you don’t get to ignore the majority verdict that Northern Ireland remains part of the UK. That’s part of accepting consent and the logical outcome is that symbols which represent NI’s constitutional status within the UK are legitimate whereas their nationalist equivalents are not. Hard luck.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:25 PMAnd you don’t get to ignore the majority verdict that Northern Ireland remains part of the UK. That’s part of accepting consent and the logical outcome is that symbols which represent NI’s constitutional status within the UK are legitimate whereas their nationalist equivalents are not. Hard luck.
I don’t believe I did, though Nationalism has negotiated those symbols to be displayed less prominently. Anyway, last time I checked, Carson wasn’t an institution of the UK state.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:32 PM‘I would welcome a Statue of James Connolly or Winifred Carney two Republican Socialists in the grounds of Stormont.’
How about a statue of Con Markievicz (nee Gore-Booth). She was:
- The first woman elected to the Westminster parliament (No, it wasn’t Nancy Astor)
- Europe’s first female cabinet minister (in the Dail)
- A member of the Anglo-Irish ascendancy who was presented to Queen Victoria as a debutante
- A Countess
- One of the leaders in 1916
If Sinn Fein wish to commemorate anyone then surely she is worthy of it (and less offensive to the Unionist community who would never have heard of her).
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:35 PMI don’t for a minute believe that SF’s efforts will be resticted to Carson. But they will not be given latitude on this. SF can accept a legitimate expression of nationalist culture at Stormont along the lines which Willow has suggested or they can howl and gnash their teeth impotently as the status quo is maintained.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:39 PMChekov
I don’t for a minute believe that SF’s efforts will be resticted to Carson. But they will not be given latitude on this. SF can accept a legitimate expression of nationalist culture at Stormont along the lines which Willow has suggested or they can howl and gnash their teeth impotently as the status quo is maintained.
If that is the attitude, then they should either force neutrality, and if they can’t manage that, they should make use of their veto to make life very uncomfortable for the DUP. Let’s say putting Poots department under review, and forcing everything he does to a cross community vote, for a start.
What annoys is not so much Unionist symbols, but Unionist attitudes to Nationalists.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:44 PMkensei: Anyway, last time I checked, Carson wasn’t an institution of the UK state.
However, he was pretty much a founder of Northern Ireland, of which Stormont houses the Executive and the Assembly. He simply doesn’t have a nationalist counterpart, unless you want to count an early power-sharing nationalist from say Sunningdale, or the first Assembly. So, Hume, or Fitt, or Mallon, say. Nominating a set of would-be wreckers instead is just taking the piss. Connolly never even heard of ‘Northern Ireland’, or Stormont.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:45 PMChekov
Blethering on about what Nationalists can expect to be granted by their Unionist overlords is all well and good and (hopefully you received a satisfying erection when you typed that last post). Unfortunately for you, Equality legislation isn’t determined by your world view.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:48 PM“so that means we have to erect another one, same scale and all that”
It so doesn’t.
“What annoys is not so much Unionist symbols, but Unionist attitudes to Nationalists”
I’m beginning to realise that what annoys is not so much Unionist symbols, but Unionists.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:50 PMUnionist attitudes to nationalists have nothing to with it. Nationalists are entitled to their aspirations as has been acknowledged ad nauseum. What they are not entitled to do is ignore constitutional realities and equality legislation will not help them in this regard. There is no joint sovereignty in Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland’s symbols are not legitimate in Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom’s symbols reflect Northern Ireland’s constitutional status. These are facts and they become no less prescient because they are more convivial to unionists. Equality legislation will not change that one iota.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:54 PMHowever, he was pretty much a founder of Northern Ireland, of which Stormont houses the Executive and the Assembly. He simply doesn’t have a nationalist counterpart, unless you want to count an early power-sharing nationalist from say Sunningdale, or the first Assembly. So, Hume, or Fitt, or Mallon, say. Nominating a set of would-be wreckers instead is just taking the piss. Connolly never even heard of ‘Northern Ireland’, or Stormont.
First up, I don’t care if Carson had a major role in partitioning the country and setting up 50 years of misrule, I don’t think he deserves a statue for it. I will tolerate it out of respect for others as long as I am respected.
If we want to take the piss, then it is our prerogative. either you can respect the choices we make, or we can get rid of the whole bloody lot. I’d prefer the former, but think Nationalism should definitely pursue the former in the event of that happening. Last thing needed is Unionism to get the idea things will be anything like last time there was a legislature sitting in that building.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 03:56 PMBL
I’m beginning to realise that what annoys is not so much Unionist symbols, but Unionists.
Only when they act like Dicks.
Chekov
Unionist attitudes to nationalists have nothing to with it.
No, they have everything to do with it.
Nationalists are entitled to their aspirations as has been acknowledged ad nauseum. What they are not entitled to do is ignore constitutional realities and equality legislation will not help them in this regard.
Actually, by all accounts it will.
There is no joint sovereignty in Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland’s symbols are not legitimate in Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom’s symbols reflect Northern Ireland’s constitutional status. These are facts and they become no less prescient because they are more convivial to unionists. Equality legislation will not change that one iota.
Sovereignty will not change, but we can and will certainly impact the expression of it. An again, in any case Carson is still not an institution of the UK state. Nor is a huge swathe of the clutter than adorns councils and Stormont.
This comes down to respect. If there is none there, then this will collapse and we’ll wind up with ever greener Plan B and it’ll be enforced anyway.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 04:00 PMRepublican[throwing]Stones - “thanks for increasing my hits, free advertising is always welcome.”
I am happy to let other people know the low level of the person they are debating with. Sinn Fein PIRA must be very proud of you. You should think about taking up the ‘Unionist Outreach’ portfolio.
interested - “Edwin Poots doesn’t have any responsbility over the flying of the Union Flag over public buildings. That’s controlled by the Flags Order and a reserved matter.”
They is nothing to stop him or the rest of the DUP asking the Prime Minister for equality with the rest of the UK. The questions is, can they be bothered now they are in power?
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 04:01 PMjoeCanuck: “SF vociferously oppose (rightly so in my opinion) the attempts/desires of certain loyal orders to march where they are not wanted.
Given that, it is passing strange that they attempted to hold this commemoration in a place where they had to know the majority of the population would object to. “Well, sensitivity, even-handedness and a lack of hypcrisy has never been a failing of most politicians, regardless of stripe. I just wonder why SF is so naked and clumsy in their failing thusly.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 04:03 PMkensei
“this will collapse and we’ll wind up with ever greener Plan B and it’ll be enforced anyway”
Really? Go on then I dare you.
No more smoke and mirrors about the mythical Plan B. Collapse the institutions over a party for a dead terrorist and see how far you get with your greener alternative.
I won’t hold my breath.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 04:11 PMRight. This is pointless. Kensei lays down the law as he sees it without any basis whatsoever and we’re all expected to defer to his judgment. Is he Brian Feeney’s son? Respect is not sponsoring events celebrating the life of a terrorist. Once that is established we can start moving forward and see what we need in addition. Otherwise you’re going to have to learn that SF have played their full deck and the leverage is no longer there. So no, your threats don’t scare anyone and Northern Ireland will not be held to ransom by you any more. 74% of people here, both unionist and nationalist do not wish to see terrorists glorified and it is SF who will have to accord them respect.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 04:17 PMREPUBLICANSTONES
thanks willow, now we know, the only history that matters is the unionist ‘version’.
Ironically, but not surprisingly, you completely miss the point. I have never said nor implied that “the only history that matters is the unionist ‘version’” – quite the opposite, in fact. I am actually objecting to “republicans” who seek to impose their version of history whereby the fact that the majority of nationalists consistently chose peaceful nationalism over violent republicanism is forgotten.
CUT THE BULL
Willowfield you seem to be cacooned [sic] in your own wee world and if your views are prevelant [sic] then I honestly think that this is an issue which could sadly go on well past its sell by date.
Let me reassure you that I am not “cocooned in my own wee world”.
James Connolly was one of the most important people who shaped republican, socialist politics in Ireland as well as being one of the main trade unioinist figures in the country.
He has no connections to Stormont; little connection to Northern Ireland; and his views won little support in Northern Ireland. Indeed, his socialist views were rejected consistently throughout the whole of Ireland.
As to Winifred Carney being obscure and no noe having heard of her Ithink thats a sad reflection as she was the first Sinn Féin representitive to stand in East Belfast she also a prominant memeber of the ITGWU in Belfast as well as being a memeber of the Irish Citizen Army.
She was never elected in Northern Ireland, represented political views which were consistently rejected and, as such, is a completely inappropriate subject for a commemoration at Stormont!
You atste that republicans are not very important in the history of this state.
Connolly and Carney are not very important.
I would say you’re wrong there as one such republican who by his own admission was the OC of the Derry Brigade of the IRA at one point is presently your Deputy First Minister, so Iwould say he and the republican movement are fairly important in the present day set up in Stormont.
Martin McGuinness is neither James Connolly nor Winifred Carney.
I would have no objections whatsoever of a portrait of Martin McGuinness being displayed in Stormont alongside Ian Paisley, David Trimble, Mark Durkan, Seamus Mallon, Brian Faulkner, Gerry Fitt, James Chichester-Clark, Terence O’Neill, Lord Brookeborough and Lord Craigavon.
KENSEI
In the Northern Ireland election of 1921 SF won 6 seats with 20% of the vote, compared to Devlin’s party which won 6 seats on 11%. Dev pulled in a seat for FF in 1933, but Nationalism wasn’t given many more serious options. Even then, there were a number of independent Republicans voted into Stormont. A lot of votes did go to Labour parties, and that needs recognised.
1921 was the only election in which “republicans” outpolled anti-violence nationalists!
Two other points: historically, a lot of Nationalism has been absentionist and secondly, SF have now been a serious political force - if not the majority - here for getting on 25 years.
1. If you choose to abstain from Parliament, then the consequences of that are that you don’t get statues put up in Parliament! It seems rather silly to recognise people who chose to abstain rather than to be constructive.
2. The Provos may well have been a political force for the past 25 years, but they were also a terrorist one: that rules them out for being honoured by the people of NI. Again – those are the consequences of choosing violence over peaceful engagement. Don’t complain now when people don’t want to celebrate those choices.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 04:18 PMKENSEI
“I don’t for a minute believe that SF’s efforts will be resticted to Carson. But they will not be given latitude on this. SF can accept a legitimate expression of nationalist culture at Stormont along the lines which Willow has suggested or they can howl and gnash their teeth impotently as the status quo is maintained.”
If that is the attitude, then they should either force neutrality, and if they can’t manage that, they should make use of their veto to make life very uncomfortable for the DUP.What is wrong with legitimate expression of nationalist culture?
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 04:32 PMBL
Really? Go on then I dare you.
No more smoke and mirrors about the mythical Plan B. Collapse the institutions over a party for a dead terrorist and see how far you get with your greener alternative.
I don’t think Nationalism should rule out making your day as an option. Like it or not the 40+% Nationalist section of the population isn’t going anywhere, and any Government is going to going to recognise that and continue to involve Dublin. If there is advantage in it, then they should do it.
I don’t care for the party, but do over the wider question of symbols. If agreement cannot be reached then the Assembly is doomed in any event.
Chekov
Right. This is pointless. Kensei lays down the law as he sees it without any basis whatsoever and we’re all expected to defer to his judgment. Is he Brian Feeney’s son?
I believe you were the one that begun “laying down the law”. I didn’t ask for my judgement either; I simply said that you should respect the requests of Nationalism’s elected representatives. I’d guess easily 90% would support something to Connolly or Collinsor as suggested Countess Markiewicz. Perhaps MMG should get recognition after his period in office. He is certainly both linked and significant
Respect is not sponsoring events celebrating the life of a terrorist. Once that is established we can start moving forward and see what we need in addition. Otherwise you’re going to have to learn that SF have played their full deck and the leverage is no longer there.
As I said, don’t particularly care for the party.
Afraid they haven’t played all their cards. They could collapse the Assembly if they wished. Or veto decisions made. You also assume this is something that annoys only SF voters; which isn’t the case. It can quite easily galvanise SDLP types too.So no, your threats don’t scare anyone and Northern Ireland will not be held to ransom by you any more. 74% of people here, both unionist and nationalist do not wish to see terrorists glorified and it is SF who will have to accord them respect.
In which case SF should set about making life difficult for the DUP until you stop being hysterical and are forced to recognise that Unionism is no longer top dog.
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 04:45 PM
