Thursday, September 20, 2007
Little to fear from anti-agreement loyalists..?
AFTER last night’s 100-strong Moygashel meeting of anti-agreement unionists, DUP bete noir Jim Allister said it was clear that unease and opposition to the DUP and Sinn Fein in government was growing. “The task now is to channel this opposition - it is a work in progress,” he added, a hint that a new party - led by him? - will be the eventual outcome of these discussions. Among those there were loyalist campaigner Willie Frazer and ex-DUP councillors Robin StIrling, William Wilkinson, Walter Millar and Leslie Cubitt. Whatever the sense of betrayal by these hardliners, I doubt if too many of them can really offer much of a challenge to the DUP. My strong suspicion is that DUP accusations of vote-splitting that benefit nationalism, a lack of savvy or ability to achieve objectives and the inate difficulties faced by any new micro-party will see this bunch of backwoodsmen go the way of so many other unionist splits - another deposit on the scrapheap of history. I doubt if the DUP is worried. ADDS: The News Letter has a fuller account, apparently from inside the meeting, although it reckons there were only 80 in attendance. Only 80! Noel McAdam report that there are divisions over whether a “formal party should be established or, at least at this stage, a pressure group to act as a focal point” for opposition to power-sharing. UPDATE: Paisley has responded: “Their so-called political platform has already been rejected by the electorate and they have nothing to offer in terms of prosperity or stability for the province. Indeed, many are more interested in attacking and undermining Unionism than developing and strengthening the Union in the longer term.” Full statement below the fold.
Best comment was from Robin Stirling from Ballymena, who said he had been contacted by disgruntled DUP voters who had promised “to even vote Sinn Fein as a protest” against current DUP-Sinn Fein cooperation. Because obviously that would help their cause…
UPDATE: Paisley picked up on Stirling’s silly remark in his statement entitled ‘Advocating voting for SF is the height of treachery’:
The safeguard for the Union is a strong Democratic Unionist Party. This was achieved at the last election through the defeat of those who were prepared to go as far as to advocate unionists actually voting for Sinn Fein candidates as a protest.
That same folly arose again last night by those who pose as the only saviour of the Union. We heard again from one prominent attendee about those prepared to vote for Sinn Fein. Their so-called political platform has already been rejected by the electorate and they have nothing to offer in terms of prosperity or stability for the Province. Indeed many are more interested in attacking and undermining Unionism than developing and strengthening the Union in the longer term.
The Democratic Unionist Party has succeeded in strengthening the Union by facing down republicans and insisting upon our demands. That strengthening and defence of the Union must be maintained. Advocating voting for the shiners in any election is the height of treachery.
The Union will only be safe in the hands of a strong and united Democratic Unionist team who, as the largest political party in Northern Ireland, are in the driving seat.”
On the split amongst the splitters, McAdam adds: “Some argue that the group should be ready to stand if Prime Minister Gordon Brown calls a snap General Election, or decides to go to the country in spring. But others argue that a committee could act as a focal point to test the strength of opposition to the Executive headed by the DUP and Sinn Fein.”
Belfast Gonzo @ 06:15 AM
Where’s Bob?
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 07:55 AMBob, saw which way the wind was blowing after getting his arse roasted in the elections. Same awaits this collection of clowns. Allister is just doing this to raise his profile and garner a few votes to ensdure a career as an independent.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 08:02 AMHopefully no more than a fart on the wind from the arse end of Unionism. Say what you want about Paisley, but the move was the right one. The rest can die off in ignominy while we start the new Northern Ireland.
Screw them.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 08:07 AMIt’s a democracy - let them organise and stand, as is their right, tho I doubt it will amount to anything.
Same happened to republicans! Nothing came of that either.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 08:14 AMGonzo - I’m not sure that you are correct on two points - one that the DUP are not worried and two that this groupng may not challenge the DUP. If you look at the history of unionism the Official unionists started out on the right wing and moved to the centre ground. When they did so the DUP was formed to soak up the right wing. They have now moved into the centre ground, supplanting teh UUP and something will be created to fill the vacuum that the Dup have left. It is the natural cycle of political parties here.
Also don’t under estimate the resentment of how the DUP played out this scenario since the election. Before the election they were always banging on about being a condition led party and not being calendar led, however only 1 of their conditions was met, namely the support for the police. All of the other conditions, such as an end to the IRA army council, a mechanism to remove parties from the executive who are in default etc have conveniently been brushed under the carpet. The DUP could get a bloody nose at the next election as punters here have long memories.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 08:20 AMI respect the views of Turgon very highly on this site but i wonder Mr Turgon if you are pinnig your hopes on people who have never been in a capable position in the far low echalons of the DUP and now you believe they can lead a brand new party. Lets have a look at the candidates they would have.
N Antrim - Jim Allister (personal grudge against Paisley) If not Jim due to Europe the Robin Stirling, Gaston or Gillespie.
Lagan Valley- Cecil Calvert (resigned as he wasn’t offered a council position)
East Belfast- Charlie Tosh (rows within Castlereagh Council)
North Belfast - Fraser Agnew (career opportunist)
West Belfast- Any half wit who’s willing to side with the UDA
South Down- Jim Wells?
Strangford- George Ennis (didn’t get selected by DUP and then ran against them for UKUP) or heaven forbid Cedric Wilson
North Down- Bob or David Vance?
Upper Bann- David Calvert (personal Grudge with DUP spanning 20 years)
East Antrim- Jack McKee (resigned from the DUP more times than i’ve gone to sleep)
East Londonderry- a Cubitt (can’t remember which one stood here) or Wille Ross (UUP)
N & S A - Willie Fraser (enough said really has stood in all assembly elections and hasn’t even figured).
My point is that all this talk of a new unionist party sounds amazing for all those out there who believe the tide will change against the DUP but when we see who exactly these people will be, it is the same tired old crowd that has been stirring it up for years. Is this what your basing your hopes on Turgon??
Posted by Bigger Picture on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:54 AM
just thought i would post it here as well.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 08:28 AMBigger Picture
I agree somewhat with your analysis, and would say that this new party needs to unite under a single figurehead, and that leader is probably not on the list above. They need someone new, without the past record of those above, but with the leadership qualities that Jim Allister doesn’t have. I respect Jim’s intellectual capability (and mulit-bob for that matter) but they are not natural leaders of people. The need someone who can empathise with teh electorate while still holding the stronger right wing viewpoint.
By the way in terms of policy the alternative to the balls up that we currently have is something that seems very foreign to this place, called democracy. Let parties stand on their manifesto and the largest group that get elected get the chance to form the government. If they do a poor job they get voted out the next time. If d’Hondt is so wonderful why don’t they adopt it in Westminster. The problenm with adopting democracy here is that the unionists DO have a majority and that would mean nationalist fears of being treated as second class citizens like in the old stormont. I think however that culture has changed sufficiently that this is unlikely.
Give democracy a chance.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 08:36 AMBP, any chance of a further DUP split/coup following the current political debacle and Paisley snr’s imminent departure from the Free P stage?
The Dallat motion in Coleraine Borough Council had unanimous support; they rejected the path being pointed by the DUP ministers.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 08:40 AMDoes anyone know if DUP Belfast City Councillor Christopher Stalford is still working for Jim Allister?
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 08:59 AMwhat about mid ulster, who will stand their. I see from Bigger Picture blog, that South Antrim is missing. Why would Jim Wells stand in South down when he is a DUP man, get your facts right.
To me it seems like a load of has beens wanting to try and make themsselves into somethings.
Hard cheese.
No mention of Mel Lucas. Doesn’t he have the balls to stand.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:07 AMNever mind Bob, anyone remember the NIUP?!?!
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:15 AMdelta Omega
I agree with your point but believe that PR is here to stay in NI. however i do not like the d’hondt formula and a true democracy should be based around a voluntary government coalition the same way as ROI, Germany and other euro countries have to operate.
I am a unionist and a DUP voter but i would be quite frankly ashamed of any unionist who was completely happy and content with the current arrangements at Stormont. If it was a perfect world SF wouldn’t exist or be made the object the object of ridicule the same way as in the ROI. Hopefully FF can start that on their side. The DUP achieved alot for unionism and even Jim Allister acknowledged that when St Andrews was agreed but at the same time pressure needs to be kept on the Republican movement at all times and i think the executive will be a very different place over the autumn and winter months with education, water rates, irish language act and security all on the agenda.
The bottom line DO is that the DUP need to show that they are delivering for the unionist people and are not being bossed by SF, i believe that will be shown in the next couple of months and i believe eventually a normal democracy will happen, stalemate fighting can’t go on forever.
In relation to the REAL DUP as i suppose these boys should be called you are right in saying that they do not have a leadership that is capable of rousing the people. I believe that once the dust settles and people see who these contenders are they will simply sigh and read the next article over.
What new policies would this party have DO?? What can they offer that hasn’t already been said before and defeated??
Nevin
No i don’t believe so simply because very few splits occur in parties over decisions like this unless there is some unnderlying political motive a la Michael Heseltine.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:15 AMElsie, see my coment about S Antrim and Mel Lucas on the other post - meeting about meeting. I’ll paste it here as well:
Nobody has mentioned South Antrim? Mel Lucas? A former election agent of Jim Allister. Was selected to run for DUP in S Antrim in 2007 Assembly Election, when sitting MLAs Paul Girvan and Wilson Clyde were deselected. Lucas came seventh and polled 2840 first preference votes (more than the SDLP’s Thomas Burns). Admittedly he’s not a heavyweight, but he has more pedigree than Willie Fraser!
S Antrim DUP picked hardliners to contest the 2007 election because they didn’t want to go into government with SF. When Paisley made the move there was considerable annoyance, particularly when it becmae clear that S Antrim MP Willie McCrea was willing to go along with him. He is now seeing a bit of a backlash. Watch this space… I think S Antrim is the most likely base for an anti-agreement unionist party
Posted by Lamaria on Sep 20, 2007 @ 11:16 AM
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:20 AMOn the other thread I have already answered Bigger Picture’s comments which I regard as a very fair criticism.
Delta Omega is of course precisely correct in his analysis. There seems to be a progressive liberalisation in unionism followed by a split. This seems to be a cyclical problem.
I was surprised and disappionted by how quickly many of the ex UUP types (many of whom I knew well at university) accepted the new deal when the prospect of power was dangled before them.
In terms of a natural leader I agree. The only caveat, however, is that at the moment with Brown’s election etc. there seems more of an acceptance of dull, dour politicians. I do not know Jim Allister so cannot comment on his team player qualities. Equally it is clear (again I have never met him) that McCartney had no real leadership qualities.
In terms of who one would run in potential election this is very difficult. The potential candidates are easily protrayed (whatever the truth) as grudge holders etc. A few new faces might help but remember the debacle of the UUP running younger candidates in 2005 though of course policy was a critical problem then. All very difficult but unless you start somewhere there is no prospect of sucess.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:23 AMLamaria
No he is not.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:23 AMelsie
Sorry for not being full in my list, it was written ad hoc and therefore i was thinking as i wrote. But for the record then:
Mid Ulster- Walter Millar (left the DUP to stand for Ulster Independence, hardly a unionist)
S Antrim - Mel Lucas (has talked a good game but there is an underlying rumour circulating that this was partly as a response to not being allocated enough areas for 1st pref votes in the 07 Assembly elections, and has taken this personally against McCrea)
FST- That fella Dickson who stood a few years ago don’t know)
WT- Don’t think iv ever even been in that part of Tyrone so wouldn’t know (help me out elsie there then if you want)
Foyle - Willie Fraser to try and improve his performance from earlier in the year why not!!
Regards Jim Wells that is based on the fact that he was close to walking in May and even went on Radio Ulster to say he was only staying in the party because that’s what the people of S Down were telling him to do. So with an option at his hand and his closeness to Jim Allister, just think of that one as an educated guess Elsie.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:23 AM“I do not know Jim Allister so cannot comment on his team player qualities. “
They don’t exist!
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:25 AMAs far as i’m aware Cllr Stalford no longer works for Jim Allister.
I think he employs a young lad called Samuel Morrison who ran an what could be described as ‘anti-Paisley blog’ until recently. Never seen the job advertised or anything like that though. Possibly just as a receptionist.
I think Allisters daughter is in the office now as well, but not 100% sure.
Cosy.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:28 AMWillie Frazer, Walter Millar, Robin Stirling - are these the type of people the supposedly intellectual Jim Allister wants to surround himself with?
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:36 AMI hear Cllr Stalford has been called to higher service ie Dundela Avenue, where, no doubt, his qualities will be better appreciated. And, no, I don’t think that job was advertised either. Maybe Rhonda wasn’t interested.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:41 AMMel Lucas - I wonder would he have been quite as hard line had he actually managed to get elected to the Assembly?
Also - he did hang around in the DUP for a fair while after they entered Government. I wonder why? Might have been something to do with his ongoing negotiations for employment with another Assembly Member which apparently broke down over pay.
Principles indeed.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:42 AMMrs. Norris
Cheap shot. Breaches the ball not man rule.
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:44 AMSupervisor,
Surely Jim Allister wouldn’t employ his children - after all, was he not a critic of that kind of thing?Who owns his office?
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:45 AMBallygobackwards
I suppose when there is no-one else…..
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:46 AMHmmmm… this is true. These fundamentalist fanatics pinned all their hopes on Robert McCartney and then when he took a hiding (and retired to England to live) they scrambled around for another figurehead. Now they are pinning their hopes on JA. If anyone saw the piece in todays NL the pictures said a thousand words - the has beens and never-weres of Unionist politics. Angry old men with no vision for the future. The next time W Frazer demands assistance from either of the Unionist parties he should be told to take a hike!
Posted by on Sep 20, 2007 @ 09:50 AM
