Friday, June 15, 2007
Leave the blue bags at home
The Loyal Orders and various band organisations have united in a public call for people not to drink alcohol and respect bye-laws against public drinking at this year’s Twelfth celebration to ensure a positive family atmosphere.
Fair Deal @ 09:48 AM
“As for the Orange Order in scotland wanting to drop the anti-catholicism a nice gesture but impossible given the nature of the Orange Orders most basic rules. Members can’t date catholics, or even be the god parent of a catholic friends child.
Part of their monthly ritual is to say a prayer “To save catholics from false doctrine and make them see the true way”. If that isn’t fundamantally sectarian I don’t know what is.”
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I do see where you are coming from, but that said it did catch my eye that the OO in Scotland seem to be changing and questioning these “most basic rules” so perhaps there may be hope of evolution in the organisation as a whole.
If I might indulge in a bit of whataboutery on the second point, the Latin Mass which the current Pope is keen on reintroducing has some important differences to the contemporary Catholic Mass - among the most controversial of which is a prayer to save Jews from condemnation and make them see the true way. (The movement to reintroduce the Latin Mass is not just about a fondness for Latin, seems to be a lot of dodgy reasons for it too)
As a non-prod who isn’t at all opposed to Orange culture when it is respectfully promoted, I do hope the OO can move on with the times and leave the blue bags and the bigotry of an element of their supporters behind them.
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 01:07 PMwhatabout,
I doubt that prayer will survive, it’s part of one mass a year on Good Friday and will probably be ditched in line with Vatican II thinking if restrictions on the Tridentine Mass are removed. A single line in one Mass a year can’t really be used to claim some sinister force behind the Latin Mass movement.
It’s all mumbo-jumbo to me anyhow.
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 01:23 PMDarth Rumsfeld:
Time to actually take off the blinkers and see what’s there, not what you think is there. Pipe bands don’t march, they generally shuffle. They play traditional Scots and Irish melodies to a high standard, and the tune to which you refer is not part of their repertoireLOL you are the first person on any board anywhere that I have seen that has ever made that claim
It would be laughable except I think you actually believe it
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 01:23 PMEmerald,
Darth is a regular here. He has seen the OO and it’s links to extreme loyalism exposed regularly. The point is that his need to deny them even though they have been shown to exist.
The OO is like the rest of unionism trying to come to terms with the disappearance of the British Empire and the possible breakup of the UK.
Denial of what is demonstrably true will not help his community play the part they should in building a common future. In Belfast especially the OO is in crisis and cannot attract respectable members of society.
The UUP which was a creature of the OO crashed and burned up. The Orange Order has at least a few members who don’t want their organisation to do likewise.
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 01:43 PMEP
He’s probably right. Pipe (as in bagpipe) bands are all pretty respectable, mainly because of the greater technical skill involved in piping and the better cultural links between Scottish, Northumbrian and Irish pipers.
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 01:46 PMGo raibh mhaith agat bogexile
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 01:57 PMWhoops, missed this bit:
“He did. Yesterday. On “The biggest balloon in the country’s biggest show in the country"-quote-"We are not an anti-catholic organisation, we are pro-Protestant””
Are they prepared to change their rules and oaths to reflect that as suggested in Scotland?
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 01:57 PMI do feel aorry for the loyal orders sometimes… there is no doubt that whatever they do some will always just hate them anyway.
what they need to do for their own self respect imo is to look at say their parade in rossnowlagh in donegal which is dignified family day out requires a couple of guards to escort them (even they are probably not necessary)… oo people will say ahh but in donegal the locals are lovely to us and so we are are nice to them etc.. different place etc..
the point is that the oo behaves with dignity in donegal.. imagine what they would do if a load of hooligans went over from belfast with a load of drink on them and started urinating in people’s gardens etc… they would go apeshit apolgise and be genuinely mortified…
in the very different atmosphere of the siex counties they need to start showing the same dignity and high standards, adopt a code of conduct… no glorification of paramilitarism, no sectarian cat calling..
they dont do this becasue they are afraid of being seen to be soft on their enemies… they need to realise that for their own self worth they should be doing these things anyway.
that way they will survive and maybe even prosper. a bit like the ni football team which has put its own act in order to a significant extent…
what is required is leadership…
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 01:59 PMdub,
You put my point in a much more diplomatic way than I can. Hopefully you will be listened to. Conflict isn’t the way to go.
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 02:10 PMDub,
The Sandhouse did some steady trade last year…
There is nothing unique about the Rossnowla parade, the only difference is the Shinners havn’t as of yet stirred up tension.And I really wonder how many people here claiming the OO to be a cover for ‘loyalist thugs’ have actually been to a 12th?
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 02:35 PMHow many of the orangemen who march at Rossnowlagh are from NI ?
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 02:45 PMFermanagh Young Unionist....I really wonder how many OO members claiming the Catholic Church to be a cover for ‘the Whore of Babylon’ have actually been to a Catholic Mass. Probably afraid your very life and soul maybe condemned to eternal hell......Death through boredom morelike Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 02:49 PMI am presuming all the Southern OO members who march at Rossnowlagh are happy with their Irish identity.
As it is a nationality division we have in the North were religion is a badge of identity, the abscense of this division in the South is surely the biggest factor for it being a peaceful parade in Donegal.
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 02:50 PMHow many of the orangemen who march at Rossnowlagh are from NI ?
At a guess I would say well over half. The Irish Orangemen then travel across the border the following week to the actual 12th. Rossnowla is like the unoffical ‘Irish 12th’.
Gregory,
Firstly I don’t know many people claiming the Church to be a cover for the whore of babylon, but I do know many many Orangemen who have been in a Catholic Chapel. But now heres an idea, instead of you engaging in whataboutery, tell me, how many of the people hearing attacking the 12th have actually been to one?Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 03:03 PMBut now heres an idea, instead of you engaging in whataboutery, tell me, how many of the people hearing attacking the 12th have actually been to one?
You would like me to say none, none what so ever.
But in fact a straw poll would say an estimation of about 85% or more of the people here, which is why they are so well up in knowing such matters!
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 03:08 PMGregory, so as you claim, when will them 85% start disputing the rather laughable statement made by macswiney?
When Orange Pipe Bands are marching past playing songs with lyrics such as “We are up to our necks in Fenian Blood, Surrender or you’ll die”, does it really matter whether or not some low-life bystanders have a blue bag or not?
If they want to tackle sectarianism in a genuine way, maybe they should address the disgraceful sectarian tunes played by the majority of “bands” in their parades…Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 03:18 PMfermanagh young unionist,
u have rather made my point for me in that you say the shinners have not discovered rossnowlagh yet.. in life the way to go forward is to take responsibility for your own behaviour. you are right that in donegal there is no organised opposition to the parade in fact quite the opposite. so you guys are nice. when there is bit of tension you guys aren’t. but you just blame the tension. do the gandhi thing.. define yourselves by your own behaviour. is it shinners who make a lot of the retinue in orange parades in ni drunk, urinate in people’s gardens, stop outside catholic chapels and pubs and beat the drums extra loudly, allow lodge banners with uvf and uda terrorists on them, shout obscenities at passers by.. no of course it is not. the people who do these things are responsible for their own behaviour. i repeat that if these things happened in donegal the oo would be genuinely mortified and would be besides themselves as to how they could make amends and rightly so… however the same things happen in the north and they do not have this reaction.. why not?? the way to grow up is to be responsible for your own behaviour not be like the child in the playground who when scolded by the teacher says “but what about what the others done?”. this sydrome is not of course confined to the oo or the unionist community and please believe me i am not attacking the oo here or the unionist community .. i am pointing out a situation where the oo behaves with self responsibiliy and dignity (surely protestant virtues) and prospers and a situation where in many (though by no means all) they do not and they do not prosper.. and i am making the connection. what sinn fein and residents groups do is up to them.. what the oo do is up to them.. that is what i am saying. the mutual condemnation thing in the north is a great way for people to avoid looking at their own behaviour.
btw i am intrigued that you call the donegal orangemen irish orangemen (which of course they are), surely you and all northern orangemen are also irish orangemen??
btw i have been to apprentice boys parades in derry and seen positives and negatives… what has been shown in derry is positive leadership for their own people by the apprentice boys. what struck me most about the parades i saw to be brutally honest was a kind of sadness and sullenness… and i for one would love to see that change.
i accept rossknowlagh is not unique but i think it is most certainly the happiest loyal order parade.. there are a lot of differences in ni between different areas and rural and urban.. fermanagh is certainly not belfast or portadown for example
regards
dub
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 03:30 PMFermanagh Young Unionist,
Unfortunately far too many of us have been exposed to the ‘tunes’ and behaviour of the Orange Order. Links to photographs and even videos of that behaviour are on the WWW and have been linked to many times.
Personally I welcome the recognition by many Orangemen that they have a problem and would prefer to believe that rehabilitation begins with the admission that there is a problem.
There are plenty of republican louts but that doesn’t invalidate republicanism. If unionism believes that it has a case then surely they too must try to deal with their lunatic fringe?
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 03:34 PMLike very other group of people, whether that be defined by nationality, religion, football team, or whatever, the OO contians a large spectrum of opinion. And like every other group, this spectrum of opinion is changing as society changes, and is represented to the the ‘non-members’ by the words of the leaders.
Although saying ‘we should not drink alcohol, we should stop abusing catholics’ does mean people will not drink alcohol and abuse catholics, it is at least a step in the right direction. If the OO can promote more liberal (notice this is all relative) people to leadership (as SF/IRA managed to do over the last 15 years) then maybe, just maybe, we can get somewhere.
There is grey area where celebration of one’s culture overlaps with abusing other cultures, but, with careful leadership, we should be able to minimise this. Anyone who thinks they can remove this grey area by removing the actual celebration (i.e. the end of the OO) are, by definition, arguing aginst their own liberal thinking.
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 03:39 PMFermanagh young unionist,
Actually while i remember 2 memories from last year’s parade in derry,
1. in the morning parade (local mostly and by the more civilised) a very moving rendition was played of “Its a long way to Tipperary..” I spoke to a few bystanders as i hummed along and not one of them seemed to know the song and they also (mostly young people) seemed genuinely shocked at what i think they thought was a papist republican song as they heard me say Tipperary.
2. I had a very interesting conversation with an orangeman from fermanagh/tyrone area who asked me what i was doing at the parade (i was photographing it for a project and also genuinely interested in it) as he said if he were a nationalist he would not go a million miles near it. I pointed out to him when i heard another familiar air that it was the same air as is sung to the republican ballad “James Connolly” (a great crowd was gathered… that one). he seemed genuinely horrified. we had a nice chat though. he also said about himself and the village he come from with a friend next to him nodding that “of course we are Irish too but we are different and of cours we are British too”. I liked him for his honesty and then we had a chat about Dublin with which he was very well acquainted. He also said he hated unionist attacking the gaa, he had a lot of respect for them and he said he just wanted the same respect for the loyal orders. he then actually said i should come to his village some time and see the local parade.
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 03:44 PM“No comment on the Grand Master of Scotland’s comments, darth?
Posted by kensei on Jun 15, 2007 @ 02:02 PM”
Sigh
Do I have to shoot down every juvenile debating point?
I have no problem with the comments. They seem perfectly sensible to me.“Darth,
Why do believe in such stuff, because it was passed down to you?”Nope, through prolonged and prayerful study. As it happens, I find many of the beliefs of the Church of Ireland to be problematical, though their core standards are generally sound. I respect all traditions, particularly my own, but where a tradition conflicts with the Bible it has to lose.
“Have you never doubted your faith?”
Nope“Do you fully believe in the bible and the gospels?”
Yup“Do you really believe it is the word of god?”
Yup“Incredible stuff!”
Nope-though naturally if you don’t believe it must appear so.Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 04:14 PMrtj
A mature and sensible contribution.ThankyouPosted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 04:16 PMAny step forward by the OO is positive. I went (for the first time in many years) to a twelfth parade last summer - in Tyrone. I was struck by significant changes. There were hardly any “Kick the Pope” bands and far fewer traditional Loyalist marching tunes. The commones tune played was “The Star of the County Down”. Bizarrely they also had Bob the builder and Sponge Bob there as well - they weren’t marching!
Posted by on Jun 15, 2007 @ 04:20 PMI’ve noticed this cooling of sectarian tensions as well.
Cliftonville matches resemble a Michael Flatley eurovision party, jungle refugees in celtic park wondering where did it all go right.
Adams and McGuiness swapping tips on drives to mid-off. Shamefull!
I’m fed up of it! C’mon you orange bastards. Have you gone soft? Charlie’s a poofter, you know, his mam and Michael Fagan, heh heh......
Posted by on Jun 16, 2007 @ 01:31 AM“This type of activity and associated unruly behaviour has been seen for years in city centres every Friday and Saturday night.”
It is curious to note that the positive effects of ecstasy in conflict resolution in NI have never been fully acknowledged.
I have seen many surreal sights north of the border, but the winner by a country mile was watching two big men with conflicting paramilitary tattoos in the Met in Armagh gurning at each other in surprise as they realized that the tune coming on was the other guy’s favourite tune as well.
If whiskey had been the substance of choice then the inner beast in everyone would have triumphed over goodwill.
Instead of blue bags, why not white pills? The drummers could lay down some funky Drum N Bass beats when they pass contentious areas, and if you give ecstasy to the other side as well they could produce some bodhrans and make a night of it.
Posted by on Jun 16, 2007 @ 07:04 AM
