Thursday, January 19, 2006
Latest Sinn Fein spy outed
Well, it looks like this one wasn’t tittle tattle. In fact nobody seems to have fingered Sean Lavelle before he outed himself. The party worker joins a growing band of ex informers from inside the Republican movement.
Mick Fealty @ 10:45 AM
‘martin’
I find your word ‘riddled’, to describe the number of touts/agents of influence inflammatory and inaccurate as it implies almost every second person within the PRM was a tout. This was clearly not so and you know it. Whether there are informers at all levels of the movement, I don’t know for sure, but I would presume so. As someone has already pointed out on slugger, with the enormous resources the British state flung at this matter, it would be hardly surprising if you fishers of men caught a fair few, now would it.
Incidentally your success in recruiting informers within the republican movements is not an Irish thing, as you once suggested. I had an acquaintance who worked in a section of the UK’s tax office which dealt with self employed businessmen; and they told me they received hundreds of letters daily from people touting on their neighbours, business associates etc. Human beings are fallible and always will be, not matter where they live.
The problem in Ireland was the darkness touts cast historically, which has made this a very difficult problem for Republican’s to deal with. As in the majority of police forces in Ireland and UK, in days gone by when departments were set up to hunt out bad apples, few people wanted to join them. The same was true im sure within the Republican movement, after all few decent men wanted to take old friends or acquaintances on they last walk down a dark lane. This may well be the reason Freddie and the rest were left in place for so long, although it does not excuse such negligence by the PRM leadership it might help explain it.
I would like to think Adams statement means the Provos have told all those touts they know of, to out themselves. In any case, if the government committee gives the PIRA a clean bill of health, then it is high time the State started treating SF like any other party. If they what to know something about SF, they should take it’s PRO out to lunch:)
For there is a great deal of difference between having informers in an organization like PIRA than in democratic political parties. Especially when the info the State learns when infiltrating a political party is channeled to that parties political opponents. As when this is done it must undermine the democracy the government is pledged to defend.
Whilst it is not difficult to see how the edges have become blurred, it is high time it stopped. If that clean bill of health is given by the monitoring committee, it is a perfect opportunity to set a new process in place. A process that all those who feel democracy is worth defending should support in my opinion.Or is the north to remain a mockney democracy, whose full facilities are open to all parties but SF, who are to be continued to be targeted as enemies of the state. In other words the north is still a cold house for all those who voted for that Party. If so, it will mean these people have no political options available to them, isn’t that were we came in circa 1969?
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 01:44 PMTwo outted. How many more to come out and why now?. Who knew about it, when did they know and how far up the leadership ladder did it go?. So many questions so little answers. Maybe it gets better the longer it goes on and maybe it goes to the very top.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 01:51 PMA very thoughful piece, Mick. Excellent.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 01:53 PMMick
“there is a great deal of difference between having informers in an organization like PIRA than in democratic political parties”
Recruited in the early 1980’s surely it is more lokely that the three most recently outed agents were recruited from the military wing and then kept on board as they and the movement were absorbed into the political wing.
The Irish News carried two recent letters from Coleraine and Ballymena Sinn Fein reps explaining to us all the nature of “Stormontgate”.
Time for the leadership to speak up and speak out!!!!!
Adams Knew !!!!!!!!!!
.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:00 PMAnother typo
Recruited in the early 1980’s surely it is more likely that the three most recently outed agents were recruited from the military wing and then kept on board as they and the movement were absorbed into the political wing.
Adams Knew !!!!!!!
.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:02 PMPerhaps everybody has missed the point (again).
The outing of touts is probably part of a choreographed sequence of events agreed between the government and Sinn Fein. After all, how could Sinn Fein be expected to get involved with policing issues; when said police and sister agencies are running agents in the party.
Only by clearing the decks, is the Government likely to get the shinners on board. Hard medicine for all sides, but very necessary.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:04 PMHas SF offered an amnesty to all touts, effectively culling all British spies and at the same time giving Adams et al the opportunity to media manage future outings. This would therefore give the impression that the leadership are now in control.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:05 PMParnell, i would imagine if you want this type of information then your first port of call should be the SDLP members of the Policing Board. Surely they’ll be able to tell us how many SB spies are currently operating within or around SF, what exactly their role and purpose is in this day and age and how long they have been at it.
Of course, the PSNI SB might tell them to get away, but we’ll never know until the ask. THey haven’t asked have they?
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:09 PM‘SB spies’
Derry Terry:
Utterly hilarious description. Shurely shome mishtake. Don’t you mean plastic Republicans who put a few fivers in a sock above the goal of a physically forced United Ireland? If that’s ideological purity I’m a banana.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:16 PMStill no reason given as to why Sean Lavelle outed himself. My theory is that Dennis Donaldson is starting to name names. This means that there are probably going to be others and their timing will depend on how long it takes for Sinn Fein to debrief them, script them, and book the solicitors. For the ones we get to know about anyway - has anyone been spotted going on long holidays recently?
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:23 PMWhatever,
Right enough the history of informing in ireland started with donaldson, i forgot that. there have been informers both at a so called ‘high’ level and ‘low’ level for hundreds of years. There have been many informers at all levels for the past 35 years. no doubt that are still informers at work within various organisations including s.f and pira. so, bearing all the above in mind, people, you know ordinary joe and josie bloggs, are expressing their confidence in adams et al by voting for them in ever increasing numbers. nothing i have heard since the last election convinces me that this trend of increased votes for adams et al will not continue. therefore vote of confidence = elections, adams et al are winning that one.Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:25 PMaccording to Pat they are all safe and sound within their communities in North Belfast. No one has the torches out for them, they didn’t do it.
My reasoning is Lavelle jumped before he was pushed.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:28 PMThis might be slightly off point but this convinces me that nationalists should not support, in any form, the northern Ireland police, the northern Ireland judiciary or the northern Ireland prosecution service. No way—no how. Johnson Brown, the retired police detective, has claimed that 1 in 5 members of loyalist paramilitaries were police agents. (He claims that they had fewer agents in the RM but worked to have fewer high placed agents.) “Martin Ingram” on this site has claimed one in three loyalists were British agents. If this is true then we can assume that almost every catholic murdered by the UVF/UDA/bla bla was murdered with the acquiescence of the police and government.
I have known a number of people murdered by loyalists and the idea that the police and intelligence services were involved in every one (not just turning a blind eye as I had always assumed) is sickening.
I am not a member of any political organization but a word to Chris Gaskin and Pat McLarnon—much as I respect your views, if SF gives its support to the police without a full public airing of police collusion and with out root and branch reform then I will give my support (at least rhetorically) to the continuity boys. And changing the name and putting a few fenians on toothless police “oversight” boards is not root and branch reform!!!
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:32 PMwest belfast resident
way sould adams go 75% of voters in west belfast want him to stay.Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:46 PM‘if SF gives its support to the police without a full public airing of police collusion and with out root and branch reform then I will give my support (at least rhetorically) to the continuity boys’
Hmm, this leaves open the theoretical possibility that you would do more than simply support a terrorist organisation which is determined to kill Irish men and women in puruit of irish freedom. I’m not sure that’s legal.
I’d stay in with PIRA - the pension opportunities are better.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:46 PMMartin,
Im not another Sinner on here to have a go at you but I would say that I have a fairly good knowledge of all these issues being discussed. I have read most of the material you have published, listened to you being interviewed several times and followed you on here. The thing that strikes me is that you have come out with very little that is new, you seem to develop on things that are already in the public domain or at least or known to people who follow these issues. I listened to your latest radio interview at the weekend and to be honest I could easly come out and pass myself off as an ex agent handler working for the last 20 years. Of course I understand the situation that you may not want to put further lives in danger by releasing further info but in all honesty you dont convince alot of people. For example you have very little in your book that is new about scap. There is nothing there that Im sure I couldnt get my hands on if I was researching a book full time with the help of a few good friendly sources like the Liam Clarkes of this world who pick up odd bits of half reliable info and build stories around them. The reason Im so sure of what Iam saying is that through a marriage I had a knowledge of scap, some quite personal everyday issues I was aware of as would alot of people around him (i didnt know he was an informer) if you are who you say you are you would also have been aware of these issues and they would have been published in your book.
Still to be convinced...........Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:52 PMFor the ones we get to know about anyway - has anyone been spotted going on long holidays recently?
I hear Martin McGuinness is visiting Sri Lanka, oddly enough giving singing lessons to the Tamil Tigers.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 02:57 PMI find it amazing that a lot of people on here think that Adams should resign because Sinn Fein had spies/touts within the party working for the British Government .Can anyone imagine the same scenario only this time it’s the Conservative party that has been compromised by state agents ,I think you all would be calling for Blairs head and not the head of the victimised party .When Watergate came to light in the 1970’s showing that Nixon had bugged the Democratic party`s offices ,it was Nixon who was impeached and lost the presidency and rightly so for his lack of integrity.Sinn Fein is a legitimate party within the UK and as such afforded the same rights and status as all the other parties .The attack on Sinn Fein as a party by implanting state agents is a direct attack on democracy and one wonders which party is next ?
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 03:00 PMAnd changing the name and putting a few fenians on toothless police “oversight” boards is not root and branch reform!!!
I agree Heck
Policing is going to be a massive issue for Sinn Féin very shortly.
Let’s just wait and see what happens.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 03:02 PMOceallaigh
Recruited in the early 1980’s surely it is more likely that the three most recently outed agents were recruited from the military wing and then kept on board as they and the movement were absorbed into the political wing.
The peace process is a Brit Govt/Adams McGuinness invention to end the war. Much of what has been happening under the line has been choreographed in the full knowledge of both sides.
I have have not called for Adams to go but at the risk of sounding like a broken record i say again.
Adams knew !!!!!!!!!!!
.
Adams Knew !!!!!!!
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 03:06 PMDIRELAND EXCLUSIVE - SINN FEIN LISTS CONDITIONS NECESSARY FOR POLICING PARTICIPATION:
1. Informants to have payments linked to inflation.
2. Hardship allowance for living in Huddersfield to be increased.
3. 30 pieces of silver to be replaced by direct payment into bank account (Not Northern Bank)
4. Disabled informants must have ramp access into Castlereagh.
5. Chris Gaskin to be Chief Constable
6. Police Service to be renamed, north of Ireland Tout Service (NITS)Ends
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 03:10 PMChris Gaskin to be Chief Constable
LOL, you have some imagination bogexile
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 03:14 PMIf the republican movement was so riddled with spies and if its leadership was run by the british, what was all these listen and look equipment for from the bug to the tower worth millions of pounds?
Don’t tell me. Camouflage.Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 03:17 PMThe detractors of Sinn Fein on this site seem to eternally gloat in the abysmal belief that anything that happens to the Republican Movement, good or bad is evidence of their mendacity and inevitable defeat. How petty, frivolous and infantile some of Sluggers most frequent commentators are. Who really believes this opportunistic ‘Martin “Innuendo” Ingram’ character, who continually hijacks the stories of others without providing any substantive evidence for his belief that he is a former senior agent.
Could it be a case of simple psychosis? If so, I pity him, and wish that others would not lend him credibility.
As for those who peddle the line, “touts in Sinn Fein = Adams must go”, do you seriously expect the leader of one of the most sucessful and demonstrably effective liberation forces in the world (and the ANC/Tamill Tigers/PLO certainly think this) should resign because his considerable enemies have managed to plant informers in his movement? Did Hugh Orde resign after Castlereagh? Did Major resign when the IRA ripped the heart out of London, casuing insurance companies to refuse cover for financial districts in England, and the beginning, in earnest, of the Peace Process?
The reality is that Sinn Féin continues to grow apace. Its morale is high, and many political pundits are predicting that its current meditations on economic strategy will drive the party through to greater electoral success in the south. Pound for pound, Óglaigh na hÉireann was one of the most spectacularly successful and enduring guerilla armies in the history of the world, and that with limited resources and under the nose of British Imperialism.
Your military machine, your SAS, your Blackwatch, you gerrymandering, your ectarianism, your repression could not beat the strength of an idea. That idea is equality and freedom. As Sands put it, “It is that undauntable thought my friend, that thought that says ‘I’m right’.”
No amount of waffle from semi-illiterate British agents can stop the inevitability of an Irish republic. Tiocfaidh ár lá.
Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 03:27 PMThis is a sorry tale unfolding. I feel sorry for him and his family and all those around him who trusted him.
So many good people, on all sides, got involved in a vicious, wicked and totally pointless war.
We’re moving away from the war, that’s for sure, but I still don’t see a lot of peace.Posted by on Jan 19, 2006 @ 03:27 PM
