Thursday, January 19, 2006
Latest Sinn Fein spy outed
Well, it looks like this one wasn’t tittle tattle. In fact nobody seems to have fingered Sean Lavelle before he outed himself. The party worker joins a growing band of ex informers from inside the Republican movement.
Mick Fealty @ 10:45 AM
Hey Gaskin,
Just got back from Derry, saw Art Garfunkle selling tickets to a football match or concert or somthing.... ticket tout.... hmmmm strange he had no tickets........
anyway just read your silly post again had another laugh, i then read your reply where you state the figure 6… can you not count it was not 6 names i gave you but 9 and they were only quick examples off the top of my head..
So we now no that you have a bad memory, a dodgey viewpoint, a flawed argument, a party riddled with touts and on top of that you can’t count.........
Jeezzzzzzzz man you don’t have a lot going for you do you?
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 05:12 PMPat if CT pushed the line that ardoyne was clear off touts that took the heat off any touts that were still there. The area had got a clean bill of health. That left the touts still there free to work.
Really what they should have been doing was after one tout was outed then they should’ve been on the alert for more. Isn’t that right???
So again I use PRs posts to state the situation.
We have curly top sending out a guy on an job knowing he was going to GET CAUGHT, the eejit gets put away and Mrs eejit and CT get together. That was from the night of the enniskillen bombing in 1983?? Then we have Teer charged on basis of blacks evidence in 1981. Black was also a tout, was that the one from the new lodge?? So there are two touts, and CT pushed the line that the area is now clear. So this is long standing-going back to the eighties.
After scap CT is WIDELY rumoured to be a tout. It must have been known locally on the bush telegraph before that, since Paul Rea has said ask the vols,and every Republican in N Belfast knows that, except Pat McLarnon.
Now CT is editor of Daily Ireland? You Pat say he is no tout, no reason to suspect him??
This is even before we look at his involvement at Carrigart Avenue in Lenadoon, when he drove lynch over to the Martins house and his suspected behaviour in that area.
You still say he has no case to answer??
More of a case to answer than some who ended up hooded and nutted. Don’t you think??
And we have not even mentioned Hawk yet!!!
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 05:49 PMPat lets use PRs posts to piece this together.
Beginning of the eighties we have Teer and Black two touts in N Belfast.
1983 on nite of enniskillen bombing eejit gets sent out on a job to GET CAUGHT. Eejit gets put away and Mrs eejit and CT get together.
Teer is spirited away, CT pushes the line thru the eighties that the area is free of touts, it has a clean bill of health.
This allowed other touts to work freely. No one is now under suspicion. Alls clear.
BUT within the movement there are rumbles of discontent at this situation. Not everybodys happy.
Doubts about CT.
We have CTs involvement in the Carrigart Avenue fiasco. All the vols involved are stood down. DM is nicked but hes still out. AM the same. CT the same, scap goes south comes back mentioned in court etc but alls well and lives happy ever after in Riverdale.
Scap is outed, suspicion falls on those involved in the Martin house fiasco. Rumours are flying. CT again under suspicion
You still say he has no case to answer??? LOL
AND we haven’t even begun talking about Hawk yet!!
Keep defending them Pat.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 06:00 PMsorry about the double posts. i posted one and thought it went off into the ether world and could not even get the site up then i posted the other and the same thing happened, i thought they had not even reached the site. i seem to be having trouble with the site.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 07:04 PMWBR, The enniskillen job (and Bridge Street) was in 1987. Who would have sent anybody out that night? Black was most likely not a working tout but went supergrass when arrested in 81. CT was not on the scene then. Loughrey was a more important person in terms of touting than Black. Pat probably doesn’t know about him either.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 07:34 PMWBR,
lets have none of the anonymous bullshit you cowardly troll.
For all Black’s frailties there was never any insinuation that he had ever been acting as an agent within the IRA. He did of course become a supergrass after being arrested at an IRA checkpoint. So if you don’t know the difference between those acting as an agent and those who could not face up to their responsibilities as an IRA volunteeer then you are an idiot.
For your information Teer was already in custody after being arrested after an IRA rocket attack in 1981. He was arrested in a flat at Rossnareen Ave after a rocket attack that killed a cop. He was subsequently jailed for 7 years. So don’t even attempt to talk about things you obviously haven’t a clue about.
The Enniskillen bomb was not in 1983 but was in 1987, so is there anything you can get right?
After that your posts go into a diatribe of rumours, smears and innuendoes devoid of anything approaching the truth.
I think most readers of the thread will recognise that I have exposed even those lines of your thread that can be historically proven as incorrect, to be just that. They will set that against the allegations that you have made and draw their own conclusions.
By all means put any facts you may possess before the thread, just don’t expect to post whatever you want without critcism and those who will correct your factual inaccuracies.
I will leave you now to consider that sometimes it is better not to adopt an unquestioning attitude to the smears by PR etc, you obviously have issues with some individuals, i’m sorry but I can not help you with that. At this juncture I can only hope that yourself and PR have a nice life together.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 07:40 PMPat, spot on about Teer in the flat. How many in the flat became agents? We know Teer did. Ruby did. Dan was murdered in Gibraltar so he wasn’t one. But can we be sure no one else was turned? Teer beat the flat rap. He nor the rest of them were going down on that charge. The one guy who did was caught with keys linking him to the rocket attack. Teer must have got more than seven years otherwise he would have been out at the start of 85 not the middle of 86 when the Black appeal was won. Have you made the same mistake you accuse WBR of? If so, it does not pay to be pedantic with WBR. His substance is right. That’s what really matters, not whether he places dots over his i and crosses his t. Anyway, I thought you had gone off for the night - nothing to drink over there?
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 07:59 PMPaul, sorry about the dates on the enniskillen bombing. You are right it was 1987. You are right again to send someone out on a night like that was ludicrous. After something like that the cop activity is wild. Stupid Stupid Stupid thing to do. to send a man out on a night like that you were sending him to his doom, no question.
Can you tell me about Loughrey.
Pat tell us the difference between a tout and a supergrass LOL LOL LOL. They both betray don’t they?
Paul lets talk about Teer. You say he was charged on the basis of Blacks evidence but had them dismissed around 1986. Pat says he was jailed for 7 years from 81 to 88. 7 years for killing a cop jesus christ did he get off light.Were the charges dropped or did he do the seven years? I know people got more than 7 yrs for hi jacking a car!! Paul you say he was a tout and then spirited out of the area at the start of the ninties and ct pushed the line that the area was now free.
Thats the clincher really isn’t it, ct was a bit like scap, clearing out the touts. He pushed that. Thats really something that is.Boys O Boys!!
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 08:09 PMI knew Dan always thought he was set up. Much too well known to be sent out to gib. He could never have turned. They hung danny out of a hellicopter and that didn’t put him off. Maybe he was too hard line for them and thats why he was sent to gibraltar. I always thought so. He was much too well known for that op.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 08:30 PMThis is the flat where the guy jumped out the window? right?
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 08:48 PMPat I have no issues with any individuals,
also about the flat above, wrong flat. I thought it was the one in twinbrook, where the guy jumped out the window, but I know the flat and the incident now. And the guy with the keys.
‘for all of blacks frailties’ says pat. very understanding of you. why do you defend these guys.
It’s clear PR has a good working knowledge of the history of what went on. Clear to all who read. Clear CT has a case to answer and clear you are defending informers.
Next time you go to a commeration Pat, remember that when you are remembering the dead.
Shame on you.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 09:03 PMSpeaking of defending informers ....
Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams (7th August 2003)
“There is nothing I can think of more insulting, dangerous or more annoying for an Irish person, never mind a republican or a nationalist, than to be accused of acting as a spy for British Intelligence,” said the Sinn Féin president.
“I know Seán Mag Uidhir(CT?)as an outstanding champion of the Irish language and as someone who has done great work for the community through his role as the editor of the North Belfast News.”
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 10:14 PMWe properly all enjoy the kick one gets from grabbing the forbitten fruit or spilling unaccounted beans. And as much as the truth should be told and has to be told, in the end of the day it is about other peoples lives.
And because we don’t do something like that to ourselves, putting us in the spotlight where shadows fall on our very own integrity and survival in this society, we should be more considered about what we send out.
I am not saying that anyone should hush up or stop high lightening issues or covering problems.
All I’m saying is, next time it could be me in this climate of utter mistrust by accusation.Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 11:37 PMWBR, This is my recollection of the incident. Eamon Loughrey was a senior North Belfast figure who was an agent working in the ranks and was exposed during the 80s. He hoofed it before they got to him. Outside of the locality it was not discussed too widely. CT would often refer to him along with Teer as being two of the major obstacles to progress.
Pat said Teer got 7 years rather than spent 7 in jail. If he got seven he would have served 3 1/2. That would have brought him out early 85. He did not go down for killing the cop. But the charge of killing the cop meant that he was in custody when Black emerged and unable to go on the run. The cops were able to charge him on the basis of what Black had said. When the flat related charge fell through he stayed in jail on the evidence of Black.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 09:43 AMWBR, a year before Dan died they were trying to give him grief by whispering he was an informer. Some felt they had good reason for it. As it emerged, Dan was being set up by the Brits using one of their agents to create a false trail leading back to Dan so that he - a great vol - would be hamstrung, and drawing the suspicion that should have went to the real tout. To be fair to his accusers some of them later went to him and apologised.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 09:53 AMWBR, the distinction between tout and supergrass is hardly a moral one. Is there any moral difference between a murderer and an attempted murderer? Often the skill of the surgeon is all that makes the difference. The difference between Black and Donaldson is circumstance. Both agreed to work for the Brits when the offer was made. Pat’s defence of touts (although not touting) does leave us to ponder what is going on. What was Pat’s stance on Scap when he was outed? Was there someone called Chico writing then on this board blaming securocrats? Things are not always what they seem.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 10:04 AMThanks Paul for saying what you did about Danny. He was a brilliant vol. Along with Billy Carson from Cliftonville, may they both rest in peace.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 01:54 PMMuch too well known to be sent out to gib
WBRThe statement about Dan McCann, could equally be said about Mairead Farrell too. Indeed someone with her high profile should not even have been allowed to return to work in the field. But if you try and take personalities out of this and analysis those who were arrested back then in say England and Scotland you will see it contains people who were, shall I say on their second wind and who would have been long flagged up by the Security Forces.
Now they could have been sent out on the advice of an informer/agent of influence, or it could have happened on the basis of needs must and there just were not enough experienced volunteers to do this type of work. Incidentally the age level of those republican arrested, especially those engaged in more specialist work rose considerable in the period, which whilst not confirming the aforementioned theory does at the very least bolster it.Paul, and I am not having a go at him, has not really given us any facts to prove SM was a tout, an arsehole in his personal behavior, yes, not fit for command, yes, but actual evidence of touting, no, what we have is a series of admittedly interesting coincidences. One should not over look the fact, if the security services/branch wished to set a volunteer up falsely as a tout they would do so in such a manner. Indeed Paul in post 15 tells us that some volunteers felt at one time Dan McCann should have been given the black spot as he was party to being involved in a similar series of misfortunes.
Betty Boo’s post is spot on, tout outing can gain a momentum of its own totally divorced from reality. It has to be said the PRM leadership, by the nonsensical manner in which they have dealt with this matter have made it possible for any volunteer to be outed and there is little they can do about it. What has surprised me in recent weeks is that none of those who have been named as Touts have demanded to go before commission of inquiry made up of there Republican peers to defend their honour. OK, one can understand the last time some of them were named they kept quite hoping it would all go away, but as this has clearly not happened, if they are innocent of the charges are these people really going to sit back and allow themselves to be besmirched for life in this manner.
Before anyone suggest such an inquiry would be a leadership whitewash, I would suggest any commission should include former volunteers of the calibre of Brendan Hughes and others as well as serving volunteers and current and former SF members.
It would be conducted in private, but due to the caliber of those serving upon it all PRM papers, including any relevant past O’glaigh na hEireann security enquires should be made available to it. If as the current PRM leadership claim this is all about the spooks muddying the waters, if true any inquiry will also reach that conclusion and put the lid upon the security services repeating such lies. However if they find against those named recently as touts, surly it is only right and proper the Republican ‘family’ [GA’s word] new the truth of the matter. I’m not suggesting any court-marshals should follow, simply the truth be told and then hopefully this drip, drip, can be put behind us and if it occurs again in the future there will be a mechanism in place to deal with it…
I feel in the very least, former volunteers deserve better than, phone your solicitor when such accusations are made against them. I also feel the majority of volunteers of O’glaigh na hEireann, who served with honour deserve to be told which of there former comrades besmirched that honour. Ring your Brief sounds to me like the advise a bunch of criminals would give to one of their number who had been caught on the rob.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 02:08 PMMick as PR says Dan was the victim of misinformation in order to discredit him and remove him from the struggle that way. What they did not achieve with this they achieved thru their agents in the leadership. Who ever sent them on that job should be questioned thoroughly. Because as it could be seen that CT to send a man on a job on the nite of the enniskillen bombing was sending him out to be caught. They sent danny to his death by sending someone so well known. MF-for women to change their apperance, it is much easier than men, but not such a well known face as danny mc cann. Sean savage was not as well known but I won’t say any more on Sean. He was only a kid.
An arsehole in his personal bahaviour Mick says. More than that. In these areas at that time this was a no no. Perhaps CT it could be said sent this guy out innocently enough, but if he did, if his motives were not to get his feet under the table he certainly did not have the welfare of his men at heart did he? After such an episode the cops would have been ready to jump on anything that moved. Surely you can understand that.
Betty Boo is right it is about lives. How many lives of good honest volunteers were ended shortly due to agents. It is spot on forher to say its about lives. But is it wrong to question CT, to look back to draw the strings of events together whether in public or private and to question his actions. Especially in the light of recent events?? If CT is innocent then like Dan it will be come clear, but publishing a statement in daily ireland his own influence in that paper nulls the statement. I didn’t do it isn’t enough. Answer the stated allegations. Lest we forget there is the man ‘eejit’ sorry if that is derogatory, but better than to use names. At some stage he must have stepped forward to say his doubts. Obviously they haven’t been answered to any satisfaction since they are still festering. Sure it could be sour grapes, but he knows WHO sent him out. There must be others who know who sent him out. If he was lying then it could be proven he was a liar by others in a position to know.
Clearly a case to answer given his involvement in Carrigart Avenue. Too too many incidents. As well as pushing the strong line in the n belfast area that the area was clearly free of touts. PR has mentioned Loughrey, theres the other suspected tout hawk, and the various co suspicious colleagues in w belfast.
Who in that party or the PRM could any of them trust, not even each other. They deserve opprobrium for the way they ran these areas. O how the mighty have fallen!!!
The people deserve to know the truth. Suspicions and all. Thats my view in west belfast. It might not be your view from your armchair where you are.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 03:24 PMO how the mighty have fallen!!!
WBR
Mick I need to clear up. No I have no axes to grind. Altho we do have a family member murdered and are still waiting to have a visit from the cops or HET. No one has ever called. Other than that axe to grind against the cops, no other axes. Just wanted to clear that up.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 04:02 PMMick - should CT be put down on a hole on the strength of anything I have said here? Most certainly not. Have I proved he is a tout? Most certainly not. Do I believe he is a tout? Definitely. You will have noticed that I have not mentioned people like Tom Hartley whose name came up in relation to touting. The reason for this is I am not aware of one single allegation made against TH from within the movement. I refuse to chase after speculation in the media and accuse TH on that basis. And he would be very easy to accuse as he is so unpopular. But that means nothing other than he annoys people. My concern here is that Pat dived in to defend two men against allegations which he alleged came from the media. In the case of CT his main accuser was not the media but the former director of intelligence. He made no bones about it. CT and CT alone explained what needed to be explained. The then director made it known to the CS and the AC. They decided to put CT in to the paper end of things where he ‘could do no harm’. Now, it is widely accepted amongst vols that CT has been a long term plant. Since the July 2003 allegations against CT, he no longer accompanies the AC on their briefing tours of vols - where he was very persuasive on the ultimate need to accept the PSNI as well as a range of other things which vols were cold to. The AC state that they don’t belive he is a tout but vols might be uneasy and so he can no longer do briefings. In other words ‘we know he is a tout but the only people to benefit from outing him will be the Brits.’ Had Pat have stated in his posts that CT was a scumbag who took advantage of any situation or opportunity that came up, but that does not mean he is a tout I would have said fine. But when he began to cover for CT I saw what I have seen so often in these cases. That is an attempt to douse anything that would lead to a wider examination. Why did Pat deny knowledge of what all North Belfast republicans know? It is no secret - CT and and the vol’s wife had four kids together. When we take this in conjunction with the same attempts to cover for Scap, questions will be raised.
Your suggestion that Brendan Hughes and others should sit on a commission is never going to fly as it just might work. The objective of SF at the minute is to lessen outings not increase them. Why do you think they covered for Scap despite knowing he was a tout? Do you really belive that they waited until the UTV documentary before concluding he was a tout?
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 04:13 PMThe people deserve to know the truth. Suspicions and all. Thats my view in west belfast. It might not be your view from your armchair where you are.
Posted by west belfast resident
WBR
Do you really think that personalizing your post with silly throwaway jibes is going to help any, if you read what I wrote instead of going on the defensive, you would have seen that i’m calling for the truth. I don’t give a shit if you live in West Belfast or outer-Mongolia as neither is a reference as to the truth now is it, remind me, what city did the man we are discussing live in?By the way do you not have armchairs in your house, or are you the type who sits on a hard upright chair wearing a hair shirt. With crap like your last sentence you sound like the worst of the group speak shinners.
By the way, your in ‘good’ company making such jibes to my posts to this thread, the last person to do it was a former FRU army Intel sergeant. I feel like telling you to keep up the good work, but It would be wrong and to harsh, instead stick to the meat of your posts which are on a subject which needs airing; and leave snide remarks to those who don’t have an argumant to put forth.
Mick
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 04:19 PMPaul,
I have absolutely no reason to doubt what you say and I don’t, im also not quite as gullible as to believe the current leadership will run with my suggestion, it was a pebble thrown into the water’s. Never the less I think it is worth doing as there is a back log of anger building, one only has to read your posts to understand this and some day the dam just ‘might’ burst.
All the best
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 04:39 PMNo Mick you called for ‘secret’ investigations.
‘It would be conducted in private’ is what you wrote. Mick you would be the first person to say this is not on if this were the PSNI we were talking about. thats double standards!! No more secret inquiries the truth will out. telling you of a family member murdered is not s throw away jibe, I am telling you off life experiences and how sick and tired we all are of ‘secrets’ and there consequences.You are pretty defensive yourself mick. As for your FRU sergeant, he’s been giving it out around here to everyone. You’re not so special.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 04:53 PM‘an attempt to douse anything that would lead to a wider examination’ PR
absolutely. Paul it is to your credit for putting things straight.
Posted by on Jan 22, 2006 @ 05:04 PM
