Thursday, January 19, 2006
Latest Sinn Fein spy outed
Well, it looks like this one wasn’t tittle tattle. In fact nobody seems to have fingered Sean Lavelle before he outed himself. The party worker joins a growing band of ex informers from inside the Republican movement.
Mick Fealty @ 10:45 AM
imaplantwaterme, rather than drawing spurious conclusions from non-existent ‘facts’ in the manner of psychiatric patients and fairground mediums, why don’t you try learning a little bit about how IRA cells actually work and also try finding some comparative statistical evidence to support your claim that the election worker (who is not a member of Sinn Fein and has never been convicted of membership of any proscribed organisation, contrary to the liable printed here) had a dramatic effect on the productivity of IRA activity in the area? As it stands, your ‘argument’ has more holes in it than your moth-eaten fishnet tights.
An Ulsterman Logic:
“There are 162,758 Sinn Fein supporters in a room. How many of them are touts?
“Two, sir.”
“Good God! Sinn Fein is riddled with touts!”
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 02:04 AMIs this too much of a coincidence or what..........
“Ingram wove his tale using strands of oral tradition and excerpts from the diary. With supposedly actual conversations and quotations by witnesses, his rendition read like a first-hand account. In the appendix he contrived to substantiate its authenticity with a list of testimonials from a dozen notable and credible local citizens. It was a valueless gimmick in that they did not and could not testify to the credulity of his anecdotal evidence. They were character witnesses for his interviewees. By 1880 no one was alive who was directly involved. Nevertheless, because of its seemingly scientific and journalistic presentation, his work was accepted as factual and became the primary reference for every subsequent publication…” http://mtskeptics.homestead.com/files/The_Legend_Exposed.htm ………..link to an article about ghost writer Martin Ingram writing about a place called Adams Station early 1800`s Tennessee .Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 03:00 AMHave read all ther posts on this thread - a few points:
Gyponolan and heck have virtually been ignored in their analysis which I think deserves further consideration. Clearing the decks in a choreographed display with the British government is certainly what appears to be happening - the question needs to be asked, to what end? To spin the analysis on, the only conclusion I can come to is this being one of the first steps prior to a disbandment order being announced by P O’Neill with the RM undefeated and no touts in the ranks (GN and Heck may well disagree with this).
First the outings. IMC (eventually) give PIRA a (relatively) clean bill of health. Hain (or his successor) announces talks. Talks happen. Usual sabre rattling. Talk of “historic opportunity”. Hain announces deadline. Elections announced. PIRA disbands. SF gains in election. RM thereby being whiter than white with their own camp and no private army for the DUP to beat them with. Lots of valedictory speeches and power sharing reestablished.
This is, granted, a bit tenuous especially the end of the process which largely depends on whether Papa-doc is still in charge and on the time-frame which is up in the air.
Why would Adams prophesy about more informers being uncovered unless:
1) He was aware all along and
2) SF gain a political advantage by their self-flagellation in public
What that advantage is we can only speculate; I suspect that this can only be to, in the end wind up PIRA and force the DUP into a deal.
Why out themselves now? Need somebody cleverer than me to tell you about that - I think about the landscape, the nitty-gritty requires the rest of you sluggers to work out!
Mickhall - I don’t think your analysis is long winded and look forward to reading your considered responses most days.
Lots of playing the man on this thread by the way.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 03:56 AMgood article...a bit long winded but worth the read ... http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jan2006/irel-j19.shtml
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 04:49 AMPaul Rea,
under pressure over what? I know the guy who was arrested simply because when people are arrested in such circumstances word gets around areas very quickly.
As for the rest of your post I know nothing of who sent who where and of any sordid incident. It would be of benefit to the thread if you were a little more candid and reveal just who you are getting at, even by a process of elimination.As for outings in the future, I have no idea. We may have people like Lavelle coming forward. Given the restrained response from SF and others to his revelation it may encourage others to come forward as it is clear that they are in little danger and face nothing but humiliation in the eyes of their neighbours and community.
However, those actions may take place in parallel with the sort of disinformation and innuendo that followed the Scap frenzy and the more recent Donaldson affair. Something that you apparently buy into. It seems to irk you that I do not
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 08:37 AMAs for the rest of your post I know nothing of who sent who where and of any sordid incident. It would be of benefit to the thread if you were a little more candid and reveal just who you are getting at, even by a process of elimination.
That was a very disingenuous reply, Pat, how much more do you need it narrowed down in this process of elimination, after you earlier said:
The ‘they’ I was referring to were two republicans named in the media after the furore over Scap. They are indeed living safe and sound in North Belfast. No one has the torches out for them and I do believe they are not guilty of anything.
Two men, you know who they are, either you do not know as much as you pretend or you know exactly what is going on and are pretending they are not informers. Now why would you be doing that????
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 09:50 AMMick, sorry it has taken some time to respond, kids were driving me mad last night.
martin’
Quote"I find your word ‘riddled’, to describe the number of touts/agents of influence inflammatory and inaccurate as it implies almost every second person within the PRM was a tout. This was clearly not so and you know it. Whether there are informers at all levels of the movement, I don’t know for sure, but I would presume so. As someone has already pointed out on slugger, with the enormous resources the British state flung at this matter, it would be hardly surprising if you fishers of men caught a fair few, now would it."Unquote
Mick, let me first deal with your first point. In some units of the PIRA not every second man was a tout, you are right.In some Units the penetration was almost 100% and in some units like South Armagh it was almost nil.If you take the security department and attached units this level of penetration was complete. Derry City PIRA for large periods of the conflict was stood down and very ineffective for the remainder of the conflict. The other point you have to understand and thus far not debated or acknowledged is this. In my experience every Agent recruited is responsible for approx five more recruits. An Agent is used by his handlers to talent spot. Freddy Scappaticci being a long term Agent was able to vet ALL entries into the RM for the complete 32 counties of Ireland. Every compromised operation was investigated and of course that enabled anybody who was lets say “ Vulnerable “ to be approached. An Agent is in a unique position to see interesting character defects . To give one example, a person who goes around shagging IRA prisoners wives whilst the lads are doing their time is ripe for a visit, the prisoner himself is also vulnerable knowing that his wife is being poked by a loyal comrade whilst he is doing his time.He is very vulnerable to an approach, motivation being revenge sometimes after he has gone to the RM and made his feelings clear.
I would be amazed if Dennis D did not bring with him during his long career at least five Agents, that works out at one every five years. Agents are like Icebergs, its not what you see at the face but the volume below the water line that counts.Now lets deal with one of your more naive arguments.
Quote"Incidentally your success in recruiting informers within the republican movements is not an Irish thing, as you once suggested. I had an acquaintance who worked in a section of the UK’s tax office which dealt with self employed businessmen; and they told me they received hundreds of letters daily from people touting on their neighbours, business associates etc. Human beings are fallible and always will be, not matter where they live”. Unquote
What I said Mick and it remains true is this . The level of penetration within Irish militant ( Loyalist& Republican) was not difficult and reached levels greater than you would normally expect. The obvious difference to lets say the UK Inland Revenue is this . Those people who are informing the Tax authorities tend to be people who do it for Financial gain or as a result of jealously . Very rarely do these people make a career of it, they normally write a letter and run.The Irish did write letters , they walked into Police and Army stations, they stopped you on the streets and gave you information.
The last three PIRA/Sinn Fein Agents exposed have over sixty five years British Intelligence service between them . These UK tax informers are also not being asked in contrast to Republicans who were willing to lead their friends and in some cases family members to their deaths. I can think of three occassions where An Agent has supplied information which has resulted in a close family member being killed . If you take the UK Coal miners strikes of the eighties, this was a very difficult nut for the police to crack. The close togetherness of the miners was difficult to penetrate,the police have gone on the record to praise the total integrity of this strike. Even today some communities are still resentful of the police , this level of feeling was not replicated in NI. This was not so with the Irish,the number of “ Tea Stops” in the most difficult areas was amazing. I am not making this point for fun but stating my proffessional experience in dealing with this subject for over twelve years. You Michael have never been involved in this type of conflict so you may write your long winded anaylsis from the side lines till the cows come home, but you remain wrong.continued next post
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 10:05 AMbut you remain wrong. To further emphasize this point If you were to examine the level of penetration of say the Basque group Etta it would be revealing, the basque have a history of not informing to their Spanish enemy. The same is not true of the Irish. At the School of Service Intelligence we would mix with other Intelligence officers from around the world for courses etc, the experiences shared by others was in stark contrast to ours. They could not believe the ease that our services could penetrate both Irish Para militaries.
You are suggesting to this Forum that Sinn Fein is a normal political party, if you cast your mind back recently( Christmas) MICK we discussed this on the IRBB site. I wrote the piece on Cryptome in rewsponse, to prove that Sinn Fein is not a “ Normal” political party.It is simply silly and naive to argue Sinn Fein is today a normal political party and that is why it will remain a target of the law enforcement authorities of BOTH sides of the Border. It will remain a target even if Sinn Fein joined the policing regime in the North tonight. That is life and you had better get used to it.
You can not expect to turn this conflict on and off like a tap, come on Mick, come into the real world and deal with the reality of Today.Martin
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 10:08 AM‘That was a very disingenuous reply, Pat, how much more do you need it narrowed down in this process of elimination, after you earlier said:’
One of the men is from Carrickhill, the other from Ardoyne. The charge is being laid against one of them to enquire which one is not being disingenuous.
‘Two men, you know who they are, either you do not know as much as you pretend or you know exactly what is going on and are pretending they are not informers. Now why would you be doing that????’
Yes, both men are well known as republicans within North Belfast. The Paul Rea post is specifying an IRA operation that he alleges one of the men organised. I will admit having no knowledge of any of that. I’m asking for clarification from him.
For the life of me I cannot see how you can draw the conclusions you do, care to try and enlighten me.Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 10:42 AM‘Michael Jackson’
One quick point springs to mind immediately and that is your reference to ETA and their ‘Spanish enemy. ETA is on it’s knees at the minute and has been for some time - arm seizures, leaders arrested, inability to mount attacks.
I think there is an element of racism in your jibes about Irish people being willing informers. For evidence of English collaboration with the enemy turn to the Channel Islands which were occupied by the Nazis during WW2. Not much honour there - Jews handed over to die in concentration camps, etc.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 10:53 AMElfinto.
You seem to be misinformed regarding ETTA, one bombing since Christmas. They remain the No1 threat to the Spanish state.
The whole Basque region remains united and in the main does not subscribe to Spain, it is true to say they have achieved much more that the Irish Republicans have today .They have a degree of autonomy, something Republicans dont have indeed they ( Sinn Fein) are looking to implement British rule.
Quote"I think there is an element of racism in your jibes about Irish people being willing informers."Unquote
Its not a jibe but a recorded FACT, stop becoming emotional about this and start learning to address the subject.Sinn Fein is not a normal political party , now is it?
Have a nice day.
Martin.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 11:29 AMDerry City PIRA for large periods of the conflict was stood down and very ineffective for the remainder of the conflict.
When,dates, who were the agents, b@@@@
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 12:02 PM“In my experience every Agent recruited is responsible for approx five more recruits.” – Martin Ingram
So, in your parallel universe, an informer chooses to act as a recruiting sergeant for the FRU knowing full well that any such effort by him would blow his cover and lead to his certain death. He does this, presumably, because his loyalty to SB/FRU is greater than his loyalty to his own skin. Indeed, the micks are so thick that an informer can successfully recruit “at least” five other informers out of the hundreds he attempts recruit without ever giving the slightest hint of any impropriety. Did you actually work with informers or was your role just an army office clerk? You are becoming increasingly detached from reality, Mr. Mitty.
“If you take the UK Coal miners strikes of the eighties, this was a very difficult nut for the police to crack. The close togetherness of the miners was difficult to penetrate,the police have gone on the record to praise the total integrity of this strike. Even today some communities are still resentful of the police , this level of feeling was not replicated in NI.” – Martin Ingram
Yes, Martin, it’s well-known that republicans embraced the RUC and regarded them as defenders of their community, so your argument is transparently in full accordance with the facts. It’s also well known that informers are not reviled, but are, in fact, celebrated members of the local community, so it’s wholly consistent with the actual facts to state that republicans “stopped you on the streets and gave you information.”
Now, Martin, since you controlled the IRA, shouldn’t you be apologising to the British for all the trouble you caused? I mean, for heaven’s sake man, why did you blow up those lovely office buildings in Canary Wharf?
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 12:23 PMAsk the leadership!! Oh, yes, that’s right, they won’t tell you, they lie and cover up these things, pity isn’t it that it takes a ‘Martin Ingram’ to expose this and not our dear leaders ask yourself why!!! DENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN EGYPT
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 12:26 PMElfinto,
The channel islands were the most heavily garrisoned islands (1 German per 2 inhabitants I think). Most of the male population left before the invasion & despite regular deportations by the Germans in revenge for various British actions elsewhere, there was resistance even so (e.g. refusal to provide lists of aliens, hiding people - source http://www.thisisjersey.com/hmd/pageviewer2.pl?Autoincrement=000013 ).
A better choice of example would be the British who joined the SS (about 100, compared to thousands from France, Holland, Norway etc.), or Lord Haw Haw.
Ultimately though, you are clutching at straws. The sad fact is that the British fought for longest and sometimes alone against the Nazi’s and that is clearly something that annoys you & perhaps reveals your own racism.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 12:49 PMAnd evidence is still pertinent to proof, ‘lil fella. ;)
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 12:50 PMThis site gets weirder and weirder indeed. Now the “British fought for longest and sometimes alone against the Nazi’s “.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 01:10 PMSean Doherty,
Another misinformed Shinner…
If you don’t believe that the Derry Brigade was effectively run-down in the 1990s (after becoming the first terrorists in the world to use a human bomb (i.e. Patsy Gillespe) no less, then maybe you should read “The Derry Experiment” chapter of Ed Moloney’s “A Secret History....”
Are do you regard such a publication as a weapon of spin & surfutuge by a “spook”?…
Answers on the back of £20 Nothern Bank note please!
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 01:23 PMDENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN EGYPT. LOL!!
Pat everybody knows about these two men. Let’s not play silly arses. It’s been all over the media about them, one of them in particular for a long long long time. Now are these two to be treated like Scap as if they do not exsist.
This latest and long standing accusation being laid at this mans door-sending out another man on an operation KNOWING he would be caught in order to move in with the wife. Ask your self this:-’how did he know he would get caught in Bridge St??’
You are awfully defensive of them Pat!! Scared of another revelation?? Why don’t they clear the decks over there?? Why don’t they clear them here?? Is it too much for the followers all at once?
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 01:32 PMWBR,
everybody does know about these two men as it was all over the papers after the Scap frenzy, re-read my posts I have already acknowledged that.
At that time there was not a shred of proof to state that these men were anything at all. You seem to be taking the line that if it is said often and long enough it should be taken as fact. Well i’m sorry I just don’t buy that philosophy.You repeat Paul Rea’s assertion over an IRA operation that led to a man being arrested at Bridge St. You assertion’how did he know he would get caught in Bridge St’ is a tad bizarre. I had no idea that he knew he was going to get caught at Bridge St. Presumably if he had have known he wouldn’t have turned up! Perhaps you can explain your conclusions on that one.
I’m defensive only in respect of challeging wild and unproven accusations. There are others posting on this site who must take great glee at your naivety and willingness to unquestionably swallow any half baked conspiracy theory thrown in your direction. It only encourages them that their gameplan might be having a little effect.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 01:47 PMthe Basque group Etta it would be revealing, the basque have a history of not informing to their Spanish enemy
This statement just goes to show the level of accuracy that old Ingram has. I am a supporter of the Basque people and have the pleasure to speak to quite a few of them on a regular basis but this assertion by Ingram is nonsense.
The Basque’s have a long history of breaking. They differ from the Irish however in one respect. When an Irish volunteer breaks, he breaks on himself. He doesn’t implicate other volunteers. When an ETA, not Etta Ingram, volunteer breaks they break on anyone but themselves.
They break on the people who provided safe houses, transport etc
Perhaps it would be better Ingram, for a change, if you managed to find a little fact for your fictional stories.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 01:52 PMChris,
Can you recommend books/websites that might discuss the role informers have played in the ETA? I’ve just looked around quickly on google and found little. I did find this from the Christian Science Monitor:
And anyway,” he adds “if I were Al Qaeda, I would not seek a relationship with ETA, which is very weak and heavily infiltrated by police informers. It looks as though Al Qaeda can do what it wants to do on its own.”
I would be interested in reading anything that is out there…
Let me know.
FKPosted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 02:02 PMNow, Pat. If you want to be taken seriously why do you post nonsense.
You repeat Paul Rea’s assertion over an IRA operation that led to a man being arrested at Bridge St. You assertion’how did he know he would get caught in Bridge St’ is a tad bizarre. I had no idea that he knew he was going to get caught at Bridge St. Presumably if he had have known he wouldn’t have turned up! Perhaps you can explain your conclusions on that one.
How did he know, how did THE INFORMER UNDER DISCUSSION (NOT THE HAWK!! CURLYTOP) know, not the poor eejit that got caught on Bridge St!! Pat how can you not know this case, the whole of North Belfast knows it, if anything is a tad bizarre it is your postings!!
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 02:11 PM‘How did he know, how did THE INFORMER UNDER DISCUSSION (NOT THE HAWK!! CURLYTOP)’
At last, after all the pussy footing we now have the identity of the alleged person who sent out another man (who knew he was going to get arrested) so he could move in with his wife. Mmmm, bizarre indeed.
‘Pat how can you not know this case, the whole of North Belfast knows it,’
The whole of N Belfast, first time i’ve ever heard that allegation, but there’s a first time for everything.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 02:56 PM‘Mark Jackman’
Your ignorance of Basque matters is immense. I am no expert but I know enough to recognise a bluffer.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 03:14 PM
