Saturday, December 29, 2007
“It is for the parties to decide when the time is right..”
With all the coverage of the New Year message from the Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Shaun Woodward, MP, it’s worth pointing to the one key line on devolving policing and justice powers to the Assembly - full statement here
“It is for the parties to decide when the time is right, but the Government will be ready to make the transfer of powers next May as envisaged in the St Andrews Agreement.” [added emphasis]
It is something he has said before.. and he’s also admitted that the target date might not be met. But the time will only be right when those parties stop pre-empting ongoing police investigations.. or interviews for that matter. [And is Alex Maskey still “thoroughly baffled”? - Ed] Adds And, on a related point, I had neglected to mention Strabane..
Pete Baker @ 08:30 PM
Turgon,
Happy new year to your goodself.
The ‘historical struggle’ analysis (shared by most non-unionists) of the Provo campaign contradicts the view that it was murderous and evil.
Do you view the 1920s IRA campaign as murderous and evil as well?
I personally think the 1920 was justified but the Provo campaign post Stormont was not. I view the morality of both wars/terrorists campaigns as more or less morally equivalent. That does not mean that I think the old IRA should have shot Protestants but neither do I think that the Provos were murderers.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 04:53 PMSammy
What is your definition of murder?
Please consult any dictionary and then repeat your remarks about the Provos not being responsible for murder.
Using similar logic I assume you do not consider UDA,UVF of having engaged in acts of murder.Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 05:35 PMThere might have been a case, albeit very weak, for engaging British Forces.
Buy shooting policemen, prison warders, off-duty UDR members delivering the milk etc, and countless civilians blown to pieces, was unadulterated murder.Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 05:45 PMThank you all for putting up with this long drawn out discussion. We seem to be getting somewhere .
1/Rude and abusive behaviour is wrong and when it happens then the person responsible (in this case me, but not only me) should expect to have that fact pointed out to them. If one can’t accept correction and debate then one shouldn’t hand it out.
2/Censoring each other’s honestly held opinions merely because one doesn’t approve of them is twaddle. Better men and women than us have been driven to breaking Godwell’s Law.
If one doesn’t have a logical practical point to make then maybe it’s better not to comment.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:00 PMjoeCanuck,
Not according to world opinion. Freedom fighters are celebrated around the world and the IRA have been accepted as comrades in arms by authorities like Mandela and the ANC.
You may not like it and I’m very ambivalent about it since I believe that the situation is much more complicated, but the fact is that Adams and McGuinness have been broadly vindicated.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:06 PMlib 2016
“If one doesn’t have a logical practical point to make then maybe it’s better not to comment.”Spectularly ironic.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:08 PMI can’t speak to world opinion, lib2016, only for myself.
And I believe firmly in what I said.
Murder is murder.Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:11 PMLib
what a very weak argument to quote Mandela as a supporter of the Struggle when greater world leaders such as Margaret Thatcher called them some thing else
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:15 PMIt is absurd to compare the struggle of the black people of South Africa against oppression by a minority, with the situation in Northern Ireland.
The violence which led to the Treaty was justified, but once the duly constituted Dail voted to accept the treaty, justification for violence ended. Yes, a large percentage of the population of N.I. were abandoned to state discrimination but there was a political way forward, eventually, which was ably demonstrated by the successes of the civil rights movement, in which I played an exceedingly small part.
We, as a society, are not much different politically from where we were in 1972 or so.
There has been a huge change in the acceptance by “unionists” that there were a lot of rotten things in the body politic.
The violence of the IRA did not bring about that change, it delayed it by decades.Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:32 PMTurgon, Joe, Ulsterfan,
this is a well trodden path for those on both sides of the fence. The GFA/STA is a de facto recognition that the Provo campaign was not a murder campaign but part of a political struggle. The loyalist paramitaries are more difficult to evaluate being less coherrent ideologically and operationally as were the INLA.
But lets be honest here this is an ideological rather than a moral arguement - as you would harldy agree that the boy Churchill for example was a murderer for the firebombing and deliberate killing of civilians in Dresden.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:33 PMTurgon,
and your point is?
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:33 PMSemantics, Sammy.
I agree that there was a political struggle but it was a struggle conducted largely, initially, through the tactic of murder and terror.
The armalite and the ballot box.Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:40 PMJoe,
the facts back me up - the guys who devised and ran the Provo campaign were put into government by the ruling power ( the Englezes ) and by the people on whose behalf they conducted their ‘war’ ( the Nationalists of non iron). Their behaviour ( with a few shocking exceptions ) since also bears out this analysis.
The arguement you put forward was lost by the UUP at the time of the GFA - that was why Jeffrey walked out. The ‘it was a murder campaign’ arguement was conceded in the new politcal arangements - you are simply trying to re-fight the GFA arguements all over again.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 06:57 PMlib 2016,
You know full well what my point is. I doubt even in your fantsy world you regard many of your posts as logical or practical.Your posts almost all centre around a position in which unionism is falling apart, unionist young people are all leaving, the rest of us are all old, the outside world hates us. Then some “good”, “unionists” like Mick Fealty are trying to move unionism forward. Some other “quite good” unionists like the DUP are moving towards a compromise which you know they know is a stepping stone to a united Ireland (as I said before a minority of zero position in the DUP, I suspect). Other “bad” unionists like me reject the whole thing. Other “bad” unionists like the UUP want something else; I haver never understood why they were “bad” in your world view, except maybe a bit of good old fashioned MOPE hatred going back to Stormount. But dear help anyone who dares remember any deaths in front of you; except of course those caused by loyalists or the army.
Then we usually get a bit of good MOPEry and a good cheerlead for the fact that republican terrorists were much better than loyalist ones and that their campaign was entirely understandable, inevitable, necessary and not wrong. Sometimes you have a good slur at Mr. Quinn if you are in the mood as well.
Your first paragraph in your first post on this thread is a pretty classic lib quote.
So yes it is ironic for you to suggest that those without pratical and logical points should refrain from making them. If you want to see how to make logical posts from a republican perspective there are lots of examples here. Unfortunately although I do not claim myself to be particularly clever or intellectual I do suspect you yourself are actually not clever enough to understand how poor, illogical, impractical, divisive and sectarian your comments are. Or maybe you do and you are just a more sophisticated troll.
You never did explain what use you had for our children either.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 07:10 PMWell, we are at an impasse, Sammy.
I always try to look forward and there are certainly better times ahead.
Best wishes this new year.Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 07:11 PMSammy
I think we will get some agreement if you accept that SF/PIRA have agreed that Westminster is the sovereign power in this part of the island of Ireland which is under British jurisdiction and further more they are administering British law in this small part of the United Kingdom regardless of the GFA.
The GFA was a sop to Republicans as a reward for a permanent cease fire and end to all hostilities followed by a surrender of their arms to a British sponsored commission.
They had to get some thing to hide their blushes otherwise their supporters might ask what was all that about when Britain did not leave , never gave an undertaking to do so or set a date all of which were SF/IRA demands.
When you think about it they got nothing of substance.Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 07:18 PMJoe,
Impasse it is - undoubtedly a re-visit will be not be far off.
Happy new year.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 07:21 PMUlsterfan,
clearly it is in some Unionists interest to downplay the GFA/STA and some Nationlaists interests to talk it up.
I personally view it as a hollowing out of the union under the guise of devolution and the granting of the ROI a role in the affairs of Non Iron via the requirement of Unionists to administer the province in many areas on an all Ireland basis. It seems much more Irish to me post agreement than than it did before.
Which ever view is taken I am sure we will agree it was a triumph of both Irish and British diplomacy.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 07:33 PMI don’t think devolution weakened the Union. It is simply an alternative to Direct Rule which was not the preferred option of any of the parties.
The union is as strong today as prior to GFA.
It was always the case that any change in the constitutional basis of NI required approval of the people of NI .
SF gave up their claim to an all Ireland Consent thus pushing Unionists to the margins. No one else supported them and they were left on their own.
The North/South bodies are very insignificant but could sensibly be used for the benefit of all in both jurisdictions on matters of health ,law and order ,trade tourism etc.
A long period of stagnation may set in.
On more contentious issues Unionists will be able to drag their feet without any fear of sanction.
This will be the battle ground of the future.
On balance I agree British and Irish diplomacy won the day.
The Brits acting as guarantors for Unionists and the Irish will determine if there is to be a UI at all and at what pace thus pushing SF outside the tent.Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 08:06 PMIwSammy McNallywdi,
For the first time it made peaceful political progress, even normal democratic politics a likely future prospect. As such it was a win for both communities.
Turgon,
As far as I can find out the numbers of school leavers from each community are broadly equal at the moment. I simply don’t know what happens after that though if Gregory Campbell is to be believed Protestants are having a hard time.
I have been provocative but surely that could also be said of Pete’s thread header. If you play hardball it tends to get that reaction.
Given that the demographics on education and the future workforce are so important I don’t think that my emphasis on them is out of order. Certainly unionists seemed very pleased when nationalists got it wrong before the last census.
And as for your point about my harping on about the fact that Unionists stand alone and without friends? Well, I can’t change the reality of the situation. Unionists are alone and must find a way to deal with republicans. They have no alternative and constant whinging about how you don’t like it changes nothing.
The UUP is an empty shell and the DUP’s recent behaviour, however welcome it is, is also rather out of character. Surely those are fair points to make?
Try and refute the points I make rather than attack me for having the audacity to make them.
Happy New Year.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 08:21 PMOkay lib let’s refute this one:
“I don’t accept any moral equivalence between organisations founded to defend the cause of liberty, equality and fraternity and those founded to defend inherited privilege.”Three words: Enniskillen, Kingsmills, Darkley.
This one:
“As far as I can find out the numbers of school leavers from each community are broadly equal at the moment.”As far as I can find out: Not really good enough lib. If you had some evidence we could look at it. Also it tells us nothing about those at school or of preschool age. Of course lib there is always the possibility (impossibility in your view) that some Roman Catholics might actually be perfectly happy not to have a united Ireland but obviously that is just silly in lib-land. It is also interesting that you have brought the whole thing down to a sectarian head count. Maybe that tells us something about you. Though judging by your views on things like Martina’s little outburst I guess we already knew that parochial sectarian head counts are about your intellectual level.
This one:
“Unionists stand alone and without friends? “
Well apart from a few parts of the USA (and Australia oh yes; before your mates murdered Stephen Melrose and Nicholas Spanos) so apart from the a few pockets in the USA most of the world does not really care that much about our problems either pro unionist or pro nationalist (oh yes there is Shawn/Sean in Canada). Try going to Africa, people do not really care, they have enough problems of their own (Gadaffi used to like you I admit but seems to have changed his mind of late). Asia, the same. South America. Oh of course your best mates the FARC. Europe well I guess ETA likes you (not forgetting Trowbridge though can anyone understand what he is on about apart from the lizard aliens?). Russia; no remember what they thought of Enniskillen. Maybe there is a big well informed pro-republican movement in Antarctica? Maybe other penguins dislike the Emperor ones and see them as like unionists during Stormont being big and lording it over the down trodden smaller penguins.I guess you have stopped slurring Mr. Quinn which is at least some progress.
So there we go a few of your “points”.
And what do you feel our children are useful for or do you just want to deny making that comment?
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 09:11 PMTurgon,
This has gone on too long. In your case just sticking to the points I made on this thread would be a sign of recovery. Please talk to somebody, for your own sake.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 10:01 PMPsychobabble returns lib, rather as I predicted it would.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 10:11 PMFor what it’s worth, Turgon, I see lib2016 trying to reach out to you and I think he has asked for forgiveness (although a bit cackhandedly).
He certainly has insulted you quite a bit.
It’s a new year.Feel free to tell me to mind my own business.
joe
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 10:18 PMJoe,
I’m sadly coming to the conclusion that Turgon will never see a bright new dawn. He and his like are trapped in the colonial twilight forever. Their day is past.
Roll on the next generation.
Posted by on Jan 01, 2008 @ 10:53 PM
