Saturday, December 29, 2007
“It is for the parties to decide when the time is right..”
With all the coverage of the New Year message from the Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Shaun Woodward, MP, it’s worth pointing to the one key line on devolving policing and justice powers to the Assembly - full statement here
“It is for the parties to decide when the time is right, but the Government will be ready to make the transfer of powers next May as envisaged in the St Andrews Agreement.” [added emphasis]
It is something he has said before.. and he’s also admitted that the target date might not be met. But the time will only be right when those parties stop pre-empting ongoing police investigations.. or interviews for that matter. [And is Alex Maskey still “thoroughly baffled”? - Ed] Adds And, on a related point, I had neglected to mention Strabane..
Pete Baker @ 08:30 PM
You’ve some neck on ye, boy! For Irish unionists to lecture anybody on the administration of justice is an impertinence of the highest order, right up there with them presuming to lecture the world on the finer points of democracy.
People, including an increasing number of loyalists know that this is pious humbug. The Troubles were an all-out struugle for power. That is over and we’re now in a political contest. If unionists think that the way to win back their lost support is to stick with the old hypocritical bullshit then they are seriously underestimating the electorate.
Then that’s what people who have never really accepted democracy do. It’s your funeral.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 10:42 PM“but the Government will be ready to make the transfer of powers next May”
Would Dublin be agreeable? Would it be prepared to forgo its current role in poling and justice?
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 11:10 PMOOPs policing not poling!!
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 11:11 PMI used to think that the DUP would be agin it because they don’t want SF to have the post. Given recent events, maybe they don’t want the post either.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 12:13 AMI’m having trouble understanding why anyone thinks it’s a good idea to transfer these highly-contentious departments over, given that our local clique can’t get themselves organized to properly run the less contentious ones that we’ve already got.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 02:45 AMWell, you might consider the history of British ‘Law and Order’ complete with sectarian paramilitary policeforces, widespread torture and all the other excesses, right down to the names wrongly given under Parliamentary protection.
The only way to build a system in which the whole NI community can have faith is to build a system which involves the whole NI community.
If that takes time then so be it. Northern Ireland is a relatively lawabiding society with hopeless disenfranchised youth from deprived areas giving most of the trouble.
One boxing club/football team can do more to combat crime than all the thuggish police tactics which sound so good on the telly. Too many of us are aware of what ‘highly motivated’ means in the context of a police officer’s annual report.
By all means let us have a debate on the heavy handed policing needed during the Troubles and the current need for lots of community policing. There is lots of help out there for young people in trouble - the problem is getting them to acess it when they have been brought up to fear authority all their lives.
Britain and the USA have huge crime and prison problems. It’s not beyond us to take the best of European and British practice and build something new and better.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 09:11 AMComrade Stalin,
Sinn Fein would not have signed up to policing if
the transfer of policing and justice from British to Irish hands had not been ‘promised’ as part of the GFA/STA deal.I suspect that DUP will agree its implementation when the Provos agree to the winding up the ‘army council’.
The British will probably encourage Unionists down this path by increasing security cooperation ( such as that which allows Gardai into South Armagh ) with the ROI.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 12:02 PMI’m all in favour of the idea of moving policing and justice powers over here. The sooner the better.
My point is that our local politicians are too crap to deal with it. If you thought the Margaret Ritchie/UDA funding thing was bad, wait until an SF or SDLP justice minister orders a crackdown on the UDA. Or, alternatively, if a unionist justice minister orders a crackdown on dissidents in South Armagh.
I suspect that DUP will agree its implementation when the Provos agree to the winding up the ‘army council’.
Yes. Though, like the whole decommissioning issue in the past, it’s all a bit of a red herring, really. Winding up the army council will not disband the organizations that are still active in parts of the country. The council is little more than a talking shop these days. I doubt it has the authority or the power to enforce it’s will anymore, for better or for worse.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 01:08 PMLib 2016’s latest outing here is really quite elegant spin. Better than his usual. Here we see the suggestion that Northern Ireland is a pretty decent place with a few problem areas. Then throw in a bit about clubs and activities for young people and of course the fact that every society has its problems. Finally we have this bit “brought up to fear authority all their lives”.
Of course what is not said is that the “authority” which many young people have to fear now is the IRA or alphabet soup dependent on where these young people live. We also have the repetition albeit in more subtle form of the criminality slur on Mr. Quinn on the “Sinn Fein, their faltering game and one big European chance for glory” thread.
We may, however, be beginning to see the latest SF spin on policing etc.
Clearly they continue to whisper the weasel words that Mr. Quinn was a criminal with the unspoken implication to some that hence, his murder is of lesser relevance; but there is also now the idea that if policing and justice were devolved to local parties then SF would somehow be able to assist the police more. I suppose the implicit suggestion is that if SF were involved in policing then there would be a higher chance of bringing Mr. Quinn’s murderers to justice. A truly surreal lie but the republican movement has always been good at repeating lies time and again until at least some believe them.
All this is of course a repetition of the line following the murder of Mr. McCartney with a bit of added nonsense about the need to devolve policing to the best mates of the murderers. Not forgetting, of course, the fact that the IRA continue to be a very major source of criminal activity in Northern Ireland (along of course with the alphabet soup) and in the RoI.
I think Sammy’s suggestion seems sensible, however, that the army council might go away at least a bit in order to allow the DUP to accept devolution of policing. It would also be republicanism handing the DUP a stick with which to beat one of the DUP’s real enemies namely the TUV. It would also help the DUP in explaining that subsequent IRA crimes were not the “corporate responsibility” of the IRA.
So a new year beckons with the love in full steam ahead and no real chance of justice for people like Mr. Quinn’s family. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 04:34 PMTUV?, Turgon. Is that the new Allister grouping?
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 04:47 PMYes Joe it is “Traditional Unionist Voice”, I am not sure about the name but at least it is not something UP; and on an utterly unrelated note belated Happy Christmas.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 05:07 PMThank you Turgon.
Same to you and a very happy new year.Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 05:13 PMTurgon
“..the IRA continue to be a very major source of criminal activity in Northern Ireland”
If you have any evidence of this then please take it to the nearest police station. I’ve never denied that ‘demobilising’ the IRA has been a difficult process but in comparison to other revolutionary movements such as the ANC it has been performed with a comparative lack of disorder. And damn you for putting me in this position again!
I hated and opposed physical force from both the republicans and the British. If we don’t want it to happen again then we better face up to the reality that it became inevitable.
Trying to understand violence and the reasons for it does not in any way mean that I excuse it.
I abhorred the
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 06:24 PMSorry for the unfortunate typing - new laptop.
and Turgon,
Happy New Year.
I accept your genuineness and integrity. Please try and accept mine.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 06:27 PMlib 2016
“I hated and opposed physical force from both the republicans and the British.”Mr. Fealty has previously asked me not to mount personal attacks on you. This being his web site I have complied. However, I hope he will indulge a direct answer to your proclaimed views.
You lib are the one who distinguishes between the morality of different examples of what you call physical force and I call murder viz this quote:
“I don’t accept any moral equivalence between organisations founded to defend the cause of liberty, equality and fraternity and those founded to defend inherited privilege.” or this one “As for Enniskillen itself - the nationalist population was under attack from the British Army and the community which backed them. They fought back and when there is violence innocent people get hurt....end of story. citations here.
So yes I accept your genuine integrity and support for murder and murderers whatever spin you now try to put on it.
Mr. Fealty, I am sorry if the above is unacceptable but lib has directed a specific question to me and I have explained why I do not accept his “genuineness and integrity”. If I am to be banned from the site for this then that is up to you.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 06:52 PMDevolved policing could mean less interference in Provo ‘business’ operations and loyalist criminality. How would you prevent tip offs to cronies and stifling legitimate police activities? The record of both the DUP and SF do indicate success is likely in this regard.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 07:25 PMIf things are done properly, there should be no problem in devolving this responsibility.
By done properly I mean that operational control has to be solely in the hands of the Chief Constable with him being accountable to the proper authority.
This was never the case pre-direct rule and, sadly, they is some appearance of it continuing to be the case in certain “inconvenient” cases.Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 07:52 PMTurgon,
You are right at least in part. I do believe in republicanism and respect those who were prepared to give their lives and liberty in that cause...and I’m sure that I’ve contradicted myself countless times.
This is a political blog not some kind of declaration of fundamental truths but a pleasant diversion from the everyday problems of life. Frankly if I took it too seriously I’d find another hobby.
I don’t pretend to be any kind of theologian but the fact is that I also believe that British and European colonialism has become widely recognised as evil.
If I were silly enough to conclude that every unionist was therefore an evil person then that would reflect more on me than on unionism.
If you can’t find a way to respect the likes of me and mine as I respect you and yours then you are truly in trouble. I am honestly sorry that you find it impossible to see past your grief and anger but that is your problem, not mine.
This never-ending bitterness seems to be a peculiar form of ‘Britishness’ and has destroyed their position in the EU. On a smaller scale it will destroy the unionist position here and it has already lost them all support in England.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 07:59 PMFunny that; I am opposed to Turgon’s political beliefs and we have had quite a few conversations over the past year. He is certainly very forthright in his views, which he is entitled to be, but he has never ever come across to me as full of anger and bitterness.
Go figure.Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 08:09 PMLib 2016,
Yes you see I take killing people extremely seriously. That is why I do not dismiss the deaths of anyone here. That is why I do not slur the deceased whatever or whoever they are. That is why I do not dismiss the deaths of the hunger strikers nor those killed at Loughgall etc.I will respect many positions but not one which uses terms such as yours above for murders in this community.
That is why I will hold you in the same contempt as I do the supporters of the alphabet soup.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 08:10 PMAs for yourself, lib2016, I have noticed a sea change in your posts this past year, towards what I would consider the better (from my personal point of view).
But as you yourself admit, sometimes you can be self-contradictory.Anyway, best wishes for the new year to everyone.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 08:16 PMTurgon,
It’s hardly anybody’s fault if the disbandment of the IRA council is sufficient to damage TUV. If they’ve hung themselves on that hook then they can hardly blame anyone else. I have a feeling the council probably will disband, but when it happens there’ll not be very much fuss over it. Business as usual.
The trouble with the remaining gangs of IRA people who are ignoring the army council’s policy has several facets; the main one being the difficulty in persuading people to co-operate with the police in order to get them off the streets, out of either intimidation, or out of sympathy. The exact same situation exists in areas where loyalist paramilitaries are active. I think the way out of it is reasonably simple - a good old law and order crackdown. Imaginative policing will get the results which are required.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 09:29 PMThe existence or non-existence of the Council seems irrelevant to those gangs who seem to wish to exercise power without the blind eye/approval which they previously enjoyed.
What always struck me as the paradox about decommissioning - to be fully effective, it required the continued existence of weaponry in order that those refusing to decommission could, if needs be, be coerced.
In the de facto absence of a continuing paramilitary command structure, should coercion be required, it can only come from one source in a democracy - the force of law and order, popularly backed by the people.
I believe in 2007-08, the forces of law here have a historically unprecedented level of support and indeed, unprecedented cross-community participation. No longer need a police officer be 100% unionist to be a member.
Whatever political reasons there may have once been to turn a blind eye to lawlessness, those reasons have been overtaken by the unfolding of democracy and representative, power sharing government.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 10:08 PMjoeCanuck,
Thanks for your kind post. You are right to notice that I am consciously trying to leave the bitterness behind, not always successfully.
Perhaps I should be more tolerant of those who cling grimly to their hate rather than embrace the changes of the last twelve months.
As I understand it this blog has always been about challenging unionism to recognise that the old ways just won’t work.
Personal attacks and stalking are no substitute for political discussion and unless unionism can combine around some kind of modern idealogy we will all have to pick up the pieces.
If people don’t like my political beliefs that’s fine but let’s not pretend that this blog is about venting emotions. Mick is a very intelligent unionist who saw the need for calm discussion long before most of us and who still manages to get it right most of the time.
It was the only possible alternative to LuvUlster and it and other similar venues are the only way most of us have to talk politics with the other side.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 10:41 PMI wasn’t going to respond to your initial attempt at labelling, lib.
But since you’ve decided to continue with that theme by labelling both Mick and Slugger as “unioinst” I feel obliged to point out that such labelling is only used by those who prefer to pigeon-hole the messenger rather than addressing the message.
In a ‘man not ball’ way.
You’d be better advised to look outside of the boxes you wish to place others, and yourself into, and deal with the actual detail of the posts you disagree with.
Posted by on Dec 31, 2007 @ 01:34 AM
