Tuesday, March 11, 2008
It cuts both ways…
It might have taken a bit longer than many believed would be the case, but today seems to have finally delivered the politics of The Mutual Veto to the power-sharing structures up at Stormont. From a republican perspective, patience seems to have finally worn out with the exiting from the scene of Ian Paisley bringing to an end the ‘holding tongue’ strategy in the face of DUP goading.
Gerry Adams pointed the way, in the aftermath of Nigel Dodds’ Good Morning Ulster interview boasting of the ‘binned’ Irish Language Act and Nelson McCausland’s proud assertion in the Assembly chamber that the DUP held a veto over Policing and Justice. Adams’ reminder to unionists that there were two vetoes in the Executive- with all this entailed for Robbo’s fantasy east Belfast stadium- was echoed more forcefully by Alex Maskey during a Stormont Live interview this afternoon.
The shifting tone of the Sinn Fein leadership will have been welcomed by many within the nationalist community who have become increasingly agitated by the belligerent assertions by DUP representatives regarding the Irish language and Policing and Justice. It would appear, however, that the leaks from within the DUP at the weekend regarding the abandonment of support for the Long Kesh/ Maze project was the final straw.
The post-Dromore DUP appear to be a party unnerved to the extent that they risk upping the ante to a point in which only Jim Allister will benefit, given that, whatever bluff and bluster about the vetoing rights of the DUP, as the Victims Commissioners episode confirmed, resolving any contentious matter will involve satisfying both the DUP and Sinn Fein. In that context, I’d imagine that Jim Allister’s TUVites have been busy today cutting and pasting the various contributions from DUP representatives in a file marked ‘Words to Eat.’
So what may be next on the cards? Well, Arlene Foster’s eleven council model for local government could be an early victim of an Executive Cold War, whilst Edwin is known to fancy a number of projects which could be effectively torpedoed by nationalists subject to movement on the ILA.
Regarding the stadium debacle, it is obvious that the GAA are the least concerned -or affected- by lack of progress on that front. Ironically, the sporting body with the most to lose from an outbreak of Cold War at Stormont, the Irish Football Association, is that to which nationalists have the least affinity and to which unionist politicians would appear most eager to please- if the leaks regarding providing gift stadiums to Linfield or Glentoran (who must be regarded as favoured anchor tenant for the RobboDome) are anything to go by.
Of course, all of this may not come to pass. For the DUP leadership are as aware as republicans that a descent into megaphone diplomacy and tit-for-tat vetoing risks undermining the impressive electoral base coalitions both parties have nurtured in recent years. With that in mind, Sinn Fein leaders were careful today to contextualise their ‘mutual veto’ remarks within more measured assessments, cautioning against travelling down that road. What course of action the DUP will decide upon remains to be seen. We’re entering an interesting period....
Chris Donnelly @ 09:40 PM
Chris a blind man could see this coming all Unionists , but particularly the DUP are as happy as pigs in shite.
Republicans are part and parcel of administering brit rule and bending over backwards to get a critcal republican electorate to back a corrupt police and a corrupt justice system.
While the DUP vetos what ever it deems necessary to hold on to its position of supremecy and to keep the knuckle draggers happy.
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 10:52 PMSome background to today’s debate might prove valuable..
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 10:58 PMPhoney war anyone?
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 11:14 PM“the DUP leadership are as aware as republicans that a descent into megaphone diplomacy and tit-for-tat vetoing risks undermining the impressive electoral base coalitions both parties have nurtured in recent years”
Huh? It was megaphone diplomacy that generated the electoral success of these two ethnic parties.
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 11:17 PMNot necessarily a phoney war per se, ctb - there is, imho, a distinct disagreement there.
But a phoney angle on the actual story.
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 11:18 PMChris
I fail to see how this is anything but a Unionist win- no Maze terrordome, no ILA, no P&J;devolution at the cost of what?
This is just for starters. Expect no expansion of North South activity, no SF education agenda and no more jointery for forms’ sake in OFMDFM.
I like to think of it as the McHugh Maxim:)
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 11:22 PMBut a phoney angle on the actual story.
Ahh Pete, never let it be said that you don’t like to flog a line....I note you are attempting to break your record for ‘the most links to threads one has initiated in a thread’- I’m sure the Guinness family have been contacted.
Of course, there is nothing ‘phoney’ about the story as presented, though it may pain you to accept that.
Bonarlaw
...All leading to what? Do you honestly expect such a DUP agenda to come at no price? Surely following the course you propose will lead to the inevitable scuppering of the institutions, validating the Allister line, weakening the DUP and confirming to nationalists that the state is irreformable- hardly likely to dent Sinn Fein’s electoral appeal.No, I’d say that the new DUP leadership face a battle to rein in the dogs of war before they provide Allister with more ammunition to attack the party with when the probable compromise is finally done over these outstanding issues.
As I say, interesting times lay ahead.
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 11:45 PM“Chris a blind man could see this coming all Unionists , but particularly the DUP are as happy as pigs in shite.”
---Really? Gosh, that’s great then! For a minute I was worried about the whole thing.
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 11:46 PMChris
“Ahh Pete, never let it be said that you don’t like to flog a line....I note you are attempting to break your record for ‘the most links to threads one has initiated in a thread’- I’m sure the Guinness family have been contacted.”
If you’d care to respond to the points made in the background link..
Or not..
Posted by on Mar 11, 2008 @ 11:52 PMPete
...and take you away from serial multi-threading through the night?The issue of policing and justice is but one being thrashed out between republicans and unionists at present- though it remains the issue upon which the DUP appear ready to rally round in a bid to re-fight the negotiations leading up to devolution last year.
Of course, the consequences of waving a veto about in Stormont have not, in my opinion, been properly thought through by the DUP.
That’s the actual story, Pete.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 12:16 AMYou’re perfectly entitled to present what you think is the actual story, Chris.
But that doesn’t negate the background to the story.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 12:23 AMTypical career politicians in the DUP worried about Jim Allister throwing up what the DUP made him swallow as substance years ago.
All that can be said to the DUP and SF, stuff your seats you power hungry conservatives, just deliver the style of devolution awaiting you all. So that whenever you blow yourselves assunder in doing so, other parties can come along and pick up were you all left off.
Seriously, it reads to me as if ‘oh crikey we spent years ramming sectarian divisions down the throats of the people, now we can’t seem to work together too soon otherwise our core vote may disintegrate’ in the face of progress for non-unionists / nationalist and indeed both.
Deliver or get out. And stop playing propaganda games with the electorate and develop policies and ideology in line with the agreements you all signed up to. You are the politicians so deliver to that bend.
The DUP have no clue about rights, responsibilities and recognising the new role to be played in a changed society. Just because they walked away 10 years ago doesn’t mean they can abdicate the substance contained in the Belfast Agreement.
As for Sinn Fein, they demand equality and parity but they fail to understand key concepts of mutual respect that likely peg the DUP down to its sectarian flag. What was Mairead Farrell all about and stop playing political games with the Irish language and return to a proper linguistic strategy one that will likely deliver.
The same way the DUP needs to deliver, probably by accepting much of the same agreed terminology, respect and recognition, that will require a watering down exclusive ethnic stances by writing in an acceptable level of cultural-identity policies in return for economic co-operation and wider bedding down of devolution.
Both parties seem to be at fault for calling it badly.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 12:24 AMI find it just a little too coincindental that just as big Ian announces he is stepping down we see the stepping up of arguments over what are by and large symbolic matters of little practical value. Especially when the DUP and PSF gutted the other parties over the budget - that is the reality of the Executive. Cooperation to ensure domination.
The previous pursuit of Ian Óg by McKay, the hard stance taken over the Language Act and the rest do not change that. Any more than the spat over the Farrellfest did.
In short this is good for both sides at a time when they want to look tougher - the DUP with the incoming leadership and TUV panic, and the Provos to make a point to Paisley’s successor. And give the impression to the people on the ground that progress is being made and their interests stood up for when the policing thing slips.
The idea of PSF demanding people adhere to deadlines when the whole process has been one shifted deadline afer another, often to accomodate them, is interesting to say the least.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 12:27 AMI did Gerry did cut a rather pathetic figure with his remarks about the Robbodome. I really dont think the vast majority of the unionist electorate care about any footie stadium - sure they’d like a new one and will whinge about Windsor but that’s all.
The DUP’s soft flank is the ‘Terror Shrine’ haters who will be reassured by the ditching of the whole plan.
The only card SF hold is the ability to delay and annoy on acadmeic selection - but ultimately this card is three of hearts not an ace of spades.In comparsion the more that SF whinge about P & J the more they are seen as ineffectual by their own supporters.
Likewise the Irish Langauge Act - and no there is no way Broon will force an ILA through Westminster.No wonder SF are invented little causes like who gets to host what in the Playhouse on the Hill and this nonsense about ‘neutral’ spaces at councils.
All fun and games but as reality becomes clearer and SF ministers start getting flak for introducing water charges etc what will their supporters do?
My own guess is that some - a small number at first - will not bother voting. In time the nationalist electorate will vote in levels similar to unionists.
Psycologically this will be a bitter blow for nationalists as their number of MLAs start to decline.Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 12:40 AMChris
Although I’m not a Sinn Fein supporter, I think you have accurately summed up the views of many moderate Nationalists.
I find it amazing that Unionists think they can bandy their veto around to appease their backwoodsmen and think that Nationalists will just blindly agree to anything that Unionists want.
If Unionists want to initiate a tit-for-tat veto situation, that’s up to them. This can only escalate and ultimately lead to the end of the assembly.
Who will benefit from that? There may be Unionists (such as the TUV) who delude themselves that NI will revert to Direct Rule with no input from the RoI govt.
I think anyone sensible knows that this is not going to happen. Most importantly because the UK govt don’t want it.
Personally, I find it all rather childish and hope that it doesn’t descend into that sort of farce.
However, unless Unionists realise that we now have a level playing field and this isn’t the old Stormont, I think that’s the way it’s going.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 01:39 AMBilly - you’re right, this isn’t the old Stormont. For one thing, SF were fully involved in negotiating for this cosy little set-up we have now. They helped put it all together. And they are just as capable of playing to their own backwoodsmen when necessary - the Farrell business for starters, MMcG’s recent rant about murdering Brits in Londonderry…
The whole thing is posturing, the National Stadium was a political football from the start anyway - scrap it and divvy up the cash three ways and we can be done with this ‘I’ll veto your veto etc’ nonsense.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 06:08 AMActions speak louder than words. SF look weak as piss right now.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:31 AMSo at the end of the SF/DUP grand masterplan, what do we end up with ? Two parties both threatening to veto each other, and, as such, no government.
This is why mandatory coalition cannot work. Under other circumstances, in the event of a government failing to make any decisions, it would split and negotiations would occur to form a new government between different parties. That cannot now happen.
The focus on policing and justice powers seems rather contrived. Who says, when the powers are devolved, that the minister in charge will be a Sinn Fein minister ?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:34 AMAlthough I’m not a Sinn Fein supporter …
Interesting the number of times Billy begins his posts with such a remark …
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:45 AMComrade Stalin
“The focus on policing and justice powers seems rather contrived. Who says, when the powers are devolved, that the minister in charge will be a Sinn Fein minister ?”
M. d’Hondt after the next election perhaps?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:52 AMSo at the end of the SF/DUP grand masterplan, what do we end up with ? Two parties both threatening to veto each other, and, as such, no government.
To be fair, the only party vetoing the other (and then crowing about it) at the moment is the DUP. SF’s shot across their bow was long overdue and the ball would appear to be in the DUP’s (and specifically Robinson’s) court now.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:53 AMThis may be a silly question but.... if SF are against something and SDLP are in favour of it… if Alliance re-designate as nationalists and join the SDLP vote, will Sinn Fein be unable to veto it? And vice versa in the case of DUP/UUP if one was for and the other against.
So could Alliance flip flop their designation and effectively break vetoes SF/DUP with the help of the SDLP/UUP respectively?
More interestingly, could the UUP designate as nationalists for the same trick?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 08:59 AM‘patience seems to have worn out’
Know how you feel, but if we had everything move at the pace of IRA decommissioning we might have P&J;powers transferred in about 5 years time.
Lets give politics a chance, the other stuff was really not that clever.
For those who are are really crap at both social revolution and real politics, go get a job.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 09:05 AMDK
Re-designation is not allowed post-St-Andrews as I understand it.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 09:24 AMWhy would IRA/Sinn Sein threaten to undermine the building of a football stadium? surely such a development would be good for the country and will encourage our youth to get into sports?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2008 @ 09:41 AM
