Wednesday, August 29, 2007
Is squeezing the lifeblood out of Protestant Londonderry, modern Derry’s quiet disgrace?
Today an existing group of Church of Ireland parishes of “St Peter’s, Culmore and Muff are to be amalgamated with the parish of Christ Church. The move means that one parish will serve an area stretching from Derry city centre right into Co Donegal”. As this University of Ulster report noted between 1971 and 1991 the Protestant population on the Cityside of the river declined by some 83.4%. When Londonderry and Foyle College leaves for the other side of the river, only a tiny community of Protestants in the Fountain area will be left. The often sterile quarrel over the legitimacy of the city’s official name, Londonderry, belies the underlying reality of profoundly separated human lives, rather than the genuinely shared future our leading politicians have committed to through their ministerial pledge.
Mick Fealty @ 12:38 PM
“Disgrace” in what way...? How is blame apportioned here and on what factual basis are it’s conclusions drawn...?
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 12:42 PMLet’s call it by its true name: ethnic cleansing by the Republican movement. Why else would all the Protestants have packed up and gone? IRA/Sinn Fein continually girn about historic inquiries, but this is one aspect of the past that it would happily ignore. (As would, albeit for different reasons, many unionist politicos who sat on their hands when all this was going on.)
And still people wonder why unionists are opposed to a united Ireland.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 12:46 PMThe Balkanisation of Northern Ireland.
very regrettable.
I rather suspect it is volitional ethnic cleansing-people wishing to live beside “their own kind”.
I worked for an academic year in the University of Ulster (Magee.
I was struck at how resentful some of my tutees were that they had to come to Derry from other parts of NI to study for their degree.
They considered Derry to be other-which given its central place in Unionist/Loyalist folklore was to me somewhat puzzling.Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 12:50 PMperhaps someone should check the suburbs, thats were the people often go when they get a bit of cash. Apparently in schizo city thats the Waterside
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 12:53 PMWatchman-I typed before I saw your post:0)
I think the extent to which people-unionist people-have left Derry is mainly volitional.
It is a reality that dare not speak its name but I was told by a friend from the Unionist traditioon who lives in Prehen that once people from the nationalist traditon started to move in some people started to up sticks and move out towards Eglington.
Perhaps you can better inform me I have never lived in Derry but a decade spent in Letterkenny from 1996 until last year made me a regular visitor to the city.
I wasnt aware of any Clonard type actions where people were being burned out.Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 12:55 PM“Why else would all the Protestants have packed up and gone?”
Not wanting to live beside Fenians.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 12:56 PM“perhaps someone should check the suburbs, thats were the people often go when they get a bit of cash. Apparently in schizo city thats the Waterside”
jpeters
See my post on Prehen.I’m afraid the GFA-although a fine document and-imho-a workable deal-does not have the power to make people want to live in the same street or,even,the same area.
Sad,but I rather suspect,truePosted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 12:57 PM“Why else would all the Protestants have packed up and gone?”
Not wanting to live beside Fenians.”
Watch
I hope that is not the case-however it does fit the evidence.Unless there was some Clonard type burning/riot situation I wasnt aware of (very likely as I lived in Donegal until recently.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:00 PMAs one of the protestants who left I can assure you dear readers, that I left purely because of the actions of the Catholic community.
“I wasnt aware of any Clonard type actions where people were being burned out. “
Where have you been hiding-- virtually ALL the protestant businesses in Londonderry were boycotted or burned out and are now in catholic hands. ( Austins in the Diamond boycotted and now in catholic hands is a classic example)
The few remaing prods should get out now and encourage a quick handover to the ROI.
(that would wipe a lot of grins from a lot of faces)Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:04 PMPhil
sorry didnt see yours when was typing mine
my own time in the city, that dare not speak its name, led me to feel that many protestants esp from areas north of the city felt that the city had become a some sort of lost territory (though that was a point incessantly battered home as well by the SF contingent in the politics classes!)
as for the demographic changes i feel the changes are largely voluntary
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:05 PMCulmore and Muff.
Let’s hope the French speakers in our midst don’t make the connection :0)
Seriously though, I’m wondering if this move doesn’t mirror trends in Britain where the CoE is in retreat and parishes have to amalgamate, due to the paucity each Sunday of bums of seats—if I may be excused the term.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:07 PMD
yeah was thinking that the CoI has hardly ever been the most vigorous (bit big house)
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:10 PMreminds me of the US comment that a mixed neighborhood exists for that period of time between the first black family moving in and the last white family moving out.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:12 PMbarnshee
I wasnt aware of that.
When I used the Clonard analogy I was thinking of entire streets of people being forced out of their homes and the homes being brunt.
That certainly happened at the start of the troubles in the lower falls area.
Did that happen in Derry to Protestants?
I hadnt thought of the Protestant owned business angle tbh.Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:17 PMheck
Yes that is what I was thinking.I believe the term coined by this is “White Flight”.
White middle class americans simply dont wnat to be in the same street as African Americans.
They do not see blacks as their equal and associate them with social problems.
It is a society run on cosociational lines as was/is Northern Ireland.
Perhaps we should call this “Orange Exodus”Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:20 PMCofI parishes merging - is this partly population shift and partly a decline in religious practice?
The butter is being spread thinly on the bread in a lot of RC parishes these days, with priests who in former days would be enjoying retirement being kept in service. It must feel like being a US serviceman these days when you get a call from the Bishop’s Palace about another extension to your tour…
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:27 PMOver and above the fact that the line between voluntary and forced segregation may not be all that clear-cut, perhaps we could avoid jumping to the conclusion that those who left simply couldn’t bear to see a Catholic about the place. Many will have chosen to leave although they would prefer to have stayed, and would have been happy to live in mixed communities: segregation can be the undesired outcome of lots of individual choices made for perfectly respectable reasons.
A link to Thomas Schelling’s famous piece on segregation can be found here:
http://hsd.soc.cornell.edu/Segregation.htmPosted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:37 PM“I believe the term coined by this is “White Flight”.
White middle class americans simply dont wnat to be in the same street as African Americans.
They do not see blacks as their equal and associate them with social problems.
It is a society run on cosociational lines as was/is Northern Ireland.
Perhaps we should call this “Orange Exodus” “ -
Perhaps if anyone read the link attached to “leaves for the other side of the river” they might see the perceptions and thought processes that might lead to Protestants leaving the area (or orange flight if you prefer) I strongly suspect however that mindsets are set in stone before any meaningful debate is started anyway - I mean where else in the world could you imagine an absolute decimation of a city’s religious minority by 80 plus percent being attributed by intelligent people purely to the minority’s bigotry and superiority complex. Saddening.Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:46 PMThe same thing happened in North Belfast, especially around the Antrim Road area. Catholics moved in, Protestants moved out. Several years later and cue Unionist politicians spouting about ‘the Greening of North Belfast’, though the term they should have used was Voluntary Migration. Depressing that years later people are still perpetuating the myths of mass-pogroms (as opposed to individualistic and rare instances of intimidation) on the Cityside.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:49 PMCurious writing Mick. What you say is true, but in no way unique to D/L’D, except the tussle about the name change. Newbuildings is what, 98% Protestant? All over Northern Ireland people are choosing to self-segregate, and that’s part of a process that’s been going on for quite some time (you’re familiar I’m sure with the work of Richard Rose and his analysis of the Housing Exec from back when). The challenge for D/L’D is to make the city work for everyone first through real economic development, then begin working on a process of integration. That’s shared futures, but you seem to be stirring the pot of Healing Through Remembering, without the healing part.
As for why people left and why they continue to vote with their feet, we all know that Protestants have never been monolithic, not even during the Siege (lots of work on the different shades/sizes/outlooks), so hopefully the thread can reflect the range of experiences rather than a simplified rehash of victimology from either/both sides.
If you bother to ask Protestants in the town they will point out that not only Catholics had it bad during the Gerrymander; ergo, not all of the misfortune is the result of the changes that have come since Catholics got the power. It’s a complicated town, and it will stay that way, but divide and conquer (I know that’s not YOUR intent) only helps to keep it down. Cheers, Ben
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:52 PMYeah it’s all them bigotted Prods fault yet again - maybe if us Kafflics continue to move into “their” areas they might pull away all together and piss off back to Britain where they belong! - Result!!!
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:53 PMPhil: “White middle class americans simply dont wnat to be in the same street as African Americans. “
Thirty to fifty years ago, you might have been right. Things have settled out to a more economic view, albeit one masked by race, particularly subsidized / section 8 housing. People, as a rule, do not value what they do not earn… and wiith the Feds paying for the house, things can go downhill rapidly.
Phil: “They do not see blacks as their equal and associate them with social problems. “
Gee, Phil, why not take a look at the statistics: “Bureau of Justice statistics for 1976-2005 indicate blacks, while 13 percent of the population, committed more than 52 percent of U.S. homicides and were 46 percent of the homicide victims. Ninety-four percent of black homicide victims were murdered by another black.”
Given the above, I think you could make an argument that there is a likely correlation between race and social problems in the US. Similarly, I would suggest that the numbers invalidate your thesis that “white flight” and the “Orange Exodus” have much in common.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 01:58 PMBen
Think your right, the seperation in NI is in part self imposed but i think the reasons are alot more complicated than is assumed.
Demo
You make absolutely no sense, are you saying a catholic moving into your neighbourhood would drive you out? I dont think the linked article makes much sense either, it seems to mix up cause and effect on many points, its a bit of a rant really. You will have to accept that the reasons for the exodus remain more complicated
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 02:04 PMWatchman,
And still people wonder why unionists are opposed to a united Ireland.Are you saying you feel it’s much better to remain in the UK and be, as you put it, ethnically cleansed by the Republican movement? Each to his own, I suppose.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 02:06 PMThe title of this thread seems to be somewhat melodramatic, it is also misleading as it implies that the Nationalist community in Derry is directly reponsible for the population shift.
Derry, unlike Belfast, is conveniently divided by the river yet since Nationalists in the city overcame Gerrymandering and took control of the council they pioneered powersharing, whether, Unionists in the city took the offices or not. This was genuine powersharing without conditions, not the airbrushed, happy clappy, shared future agenda being rammed down our throats now. This was despite what went before and is contrast to other councils.
My own recollection was of a gradual shift when the change took place - many Protestants chose to move elsewhere, often for purely economic reasons given Derry’s not exactly rosy economy, then, never mind now. Protestants felt that they could move East for work, not an option too many Catholics felt was open to them. Protestants/ Unionists in Derry have been in need of real leadership for years and have not been getting it - meaning that they chose to leave or keep reliving the siege and increasing their alienation. I have no doubt some Unionist politicians find this convenient and feed off it.
Posted by on Aug 29, 2007 @ 02:16 PM
