Sunday, April 29, 2007

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1. Eranu.

   Aside from the ‘bobby sands book’, which for the point of clarity was a biography and not work my Bobby, which would ‘seem to back [your opinion] up’.

   And I would point out that a biography isn’t necessarily completmentary (cf. The Triumph of Failure, by Ruth Dudley Edwards).

   And that our items were in the draw.

   You have expressed the opinion my opinion “that its more like the extreme end of republicans ‘in the IME “.

   On what experience do you base your assumption / opinion?

   How do you know? Can you understand Irish? Have you been in an IME school? Have you read an inspection report? Do you have any knowledge of the sector?

   You may well a knowledge which is not apparent in your posts, however, without documentary evidence to the contary, it would be difficult to assume that your view is based on a rational overview of the evidence and, perhaps, based more on missinformed pre-rational beliefs without knowledge or examination of the facts, perhaps as a result of an unwillingness to deal with difference?

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 02:04 PM

2. - I meant ‘other items were in the draw’.

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 02:06 PM

3. A lot of squirming and muddying of water going on this thread worthy of any lawyer - the simple fact is that items such as those listed in the draw had no place there if the Irish Medium school in question had any desire to remain out of a community pigeon hole and be seen to be welcoming and open to those of all backgrounds in providing as politically neutral an environment as possible in which to learn Irish language and culture - (Perhaps this is impossible - I don’t know) You all however know this very well as it is plain as the nose on your face - it is a little disappointing to see it denied with such anger and posturing. C’mon for God sake!!

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 03:09 PM

4. my view is based on what ive seen and heard in the media, also any conversations ive had with people in belfast and dublin where its been mentioned. and also just knowing that its pretty much taken for granted in NI that IME caters for the extreme end of nationalism/republicanism.

   lets see -

   the schools are all in republican areas. or ive never heard of one anywhere else.

   none of them are in unionist areas as far as i know.

   nationalists are seen to own the language.

   unionists at present consider the language alien to them.

   i’d be fairly certain that the pupils are all catholic and parents and pupils are all from hardline areas like west belfast.

   SF are always going on about the irish language and trying to impose it on the rest if us.

   everytime you hear about irish language schools on the news there are some republicans banging on about how oppressed they are.

   in threads on slugger ive read of the extremist views of the staff, from people who have attended the schools.

   the people who defend IME schools on slugger are all republican type people (of the more extreme end, my opinion)

   and then we’ve got this thread. an SF person attending a funraiser that sells a book about IRA men signed by other IRA men.

   and then as if on queue, OC tells us he sends his kid to one !!

   and so on. its all those sort of things that build up to give an opinion. i have never ever seen or heard anything that would change my opinion.

   im assuming you have more detailed knowledge? please list your points to convince me that IME is not just for extreme republicans?

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 03:52 PM

5. Eranu,

   Thank you, for your reply / assumptions.

   I don’t think you will ever see anything that will change your mind as I think you are comfortable in your views.

   One could go through each point made. But clearly experience tells us both that this is pointless.

   Therefore let me attempt to draw an analogy.

   I have heard it said that the Free Presiterian Church is extreme and that the people who go there are all DUP people, they hate gays etc. etc.

   What do I think?

   The truth is I have no idea as I have never set foot in a Free Prespiterian Church. Nor, unfortuately do I have any close Free Prespiterian Friends. If I every do attend one I may begin to form an opinion, on THAT one but not on all them. 

   Maybe they are all Nutcases, but I don’t know, therefore I will assume they are not.

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 04:04 PM

6. gaelgannaire, ive never been in a freeP church either but i know enough about them to agree that they are a bit extreme. more so for people who live by the standards of the world and not by the standards of the bible. to be anti gay is presently wrong in the eyes of the world. but homosexual practice is wrong according to the bible. so if you live by the bible you should be anti homosexuality, not hating the people, but opposing the acts / promotion of it.

   back to the thread. you really should come up with some points to show how IME is not an extreme republican thing since you asked me to say why i thought it was???

   either that or just agree that it is?  :)

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 04:20 PM

7. Poor eranu, he’s still under the mistaken impression that he’s making a coherent argument.  He’s not.  There are Irish medium schools all over Ireland and not one could be ascribed to have a strong ideological bent other than to provide the best possible education for our children.  Maybe that’s extreme politics when it comes to Eranu’s point of view because after all education is what sets us free and therefore those who are uneducated are hostages and slaves. 

   Perhaps you could for instance point us to a post on slugger where someone gives a credible, evidence backed account, of an instance where a member of staff in a Gaelsoil expressed an extreme view.  And what was the view expressed so we can judge whether it was actually extreme, according to objective standards.

   You’d possibly be aware that the only reason that Irish Medium schools are only in nationalist/mixed areas is to avoid the risk of them being targeted like the little girls of Holy Cross were targeted by members of the unionist community.  Pipe bombs and bags of urine and all that.  But they are in mixed areas like Glengormley, Ormeau Road, North Belfast and so on.  Perhaps your grasp of geography is as poor as your grasp of other subjects such as history, the English language and logic?

   I have no problem with being described as a republican but I’m no extremist.  Then again I don’t have to defend my political point of view against those whose extremism is in ignorance and anti Irishness.

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 04:59 PM

8. gaelgannaire

   Sorry to backtrack you here, this was one of your earlier comments:

   Its happened to myself and I understand but I think that when and if discussing issues concerning the Gaelic language it is important to stick to the issue.

   The point of Fair Deal’s original blog here was asking whether there was a link between irish medium schools and “casual nationalism”, so sticking to the issue and back to the original Telegraph article:

   Among the items under the hammer at tonight’s event are single malt whiskey - one a limited edition to commemorate John Hume’s receipt of the Nobel Prize, and another similar bottle to commemorate Mary McAleese’s election as President of Ireland. There will also be a football and a Down jersey, both signed by all the Down All-Ireland winning captains, which will be presented to the buyer by Down Gaelic football legend Paddy Doherty.
   Other lots are a Bobby Sands biography signed by the surviving hunger strikers, a copy of the Belfast Agreement with John Hume’s signature, a flight from Newtownards airport over Downpatrick and Lecale, two nights’ bed and breakfast and dinner for two in the Slieve Russell Hotel and a Manchester United shirt signed by Diego Forlan and Ruud van Nistlerooy.

   I’ll agree that the flight, the two nights b+b, and the Utd shirt are apolitical prizes. But the rest? This is what I think FD meant by “casual nationalism�; as a unionist none of those prizes (with poss exception of the whiskey:)) would appeal to me.

   Now,I would be very surprised if the school wouldn’t be interested in getting some of my cash, so why then are they subconsciously restricting their fundraising to only one side of the community?

   And before you ask, I have tried learning the language on several occasions, but more importantly I do have some knowledge of minority language educational provision (although admittedly not much of the IM schools in NI) and in my experience the “ghettoising�, whether intentional or not, of the teaching of such languages will not ensure their long term survival.

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 05:07 PM

9. BP1078,
   
   ‘in my experience the “ghettoisingâ€�, whether intentional or not, of the teaching of such languages will not ensure their long term survival.’

   This is an oft quoted sentence. But what does it mean? or what do you mean by it?

   I actually disgree with it, and I think that most sociolinguists would agree, language communities must create / maintain a space or an area where their language can remain dominant in all spheres of life and in all situations. Then they must protect this space - thats language survival.

   If you call this ghettoisation, so be it. People who live in ghettos call them ‘communities’.

   I understand that it is important to try get widespread support, but in reality thats not what happens with minoritised languages.

   Regarding Gaelscoils in the North - people can complain about them but in reality, unless they can get the 1988 Education Act repealed there is very little they can do about it.

   As to the original point of the thread. I have no idea what ‘casual nationalism’ is. I am sure if Ian Paisley wanted to give something to the draw it would have been accepted - but thats not going to happen.

   Eranu,

   As I mentioned to OC earlier, I don’t really think there is any point in engaging with your points. You have made up your mind.

   Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 05:58 PM

10. I actually disgree with it, and I think that most sociolinguists would agree, language communities must create / maintain a space or an area where their language can remain dominant in all spheres of life and in all situations. Then they must protect this space - thats language survival.

    Ok, perhaps that will ensure the survival of the language, but will it flourish by being restricted within such a space? There is a potential untapped market of Irish speakers within Northern Ireland, would they feel comfortable at present within the linguistic “communities” you mention?

    I understand that it is important to try get widespread support, but in reality thats not what happens with minoritised languages.

    It is possible, given the will to move beyond traditional boundaries.There is an interesting experiment being promoted by several NGOS in eastern Europe at the minute, regarding the promotion of the various Roma languages amongst the wider population. Languages such as Lovardi are starting to be taught to non-Roma as well and it’s now accepted along with English for university entrance. Previously many of these languages would only be have spoken in Roma homes and within certain segregated schools. Widespread support of the language hasn’t automatically arisen, but it will contribute to the eventual breaking down of certain prejudices regarding both it and the people who speak it.

    As to the original point of the thread. I have no idea what ‘casual nationalism’ is. I am sure if Ian Paisley wanted to give something to the draw it would have been accepted - but thats not going to happen.

    I’m sure, if he had been asked, given the present climate, he’d have donated an old clerical collar or something. But was he, or any other unionists, or non-nationalist sporting stars for that matter, approached? If they were and refused, then you have a point. If they weren’t approached then why not?

    Posted by  on May 03, 2007 @ 06:52 PM

11. BP1078,

    Good post. Thank you. Its because of genuine posts like that that I bother with this.

    Just a couple of things but.

    ‘There is a potential untapped market of Irish speakers within Northern Ireland’

    Well, you have probably got me there, I don’t know if I can believe that. As an habitual Irish speaker all of my life I am sceptical of that - but maybe I’m completely wrong. Irish is a minority sport, but that doesnt bother me at all really. If people are interested, great!, if not o.k.

    ‘would they feel comfortable at present within the linguistic “communitiesâ€� you mention?’

    Thats interesting and I have no answer, I don’t know but I will say this, I have always felt that people who may be interested in Irish have much more respect for the ‘hard core’ if you will simply due to the fact that it is seen as very genuine.

    For example, the population of the Shaw’s Road Community (Irish speaking Ghetto if you must) isnt completely Catholic for example, or Irish, or even white, but it is Irish speaking (with a bit of Porteguese, Welsh, English and Basque spoken, in that order). So yes, I think alot of people could feel comfortable in that community and I know that many in that small community are very involved in cross community work for example.

    Yet at the same time, others may seen such a community as extreme, I don’t but, I think they are an inspiration.

    Posted by  on May 04, 2007 @ 09:02 AM
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