Sunday, April 29, 2007
Irish-medium education and casual nationalism
Unsurprisingly, Catriona Ruane has expressed her support for the expansion of the Irish-medium education sector in Northern Ireland. Her comments come ahead of her attendace at a fundraising event in Downpatrick for the local Irish nursery school. Among the items for sale are a Bobby Sands biography signed by the survivng hunger strikers, a copy of the Belfast Agreement signed by John Hume and a two bottles of whiskey - one to commemorate Mary McAleese’s election as RoI president and the other to commemorate John Hume’s receipt of the Nobel prize.
Fair Deal @ 11:59 AM
SuperSoupy,
Is this the schools or just advocates of the schools?As I said I don’t know the situation in the North
but I would find such a development as advocating a purely Catholic ethos as very negative and counterproductive to the long-term welfare of the language.Perhaps they are hoping to get funding under this umbrella but I still would be uncomfortable with it.
This is the same Catholic Church that did next to nothing for the Irish language, not least because the only Irish language bible was a Protestant one from Elizabeth I.
The same Catholic Church that discouraged the use of Irish in their schools right up the beginning of the 20th century.
Why hitch the Irish language to the Catholic wagon?
Posted by on Apr 30, 2007 @ 09:08 PMSome northern schools have tried to get money as integrated as they aren’t religious, though they often do prepare children for first communion etc.
As for the notion that these are Provo schools, simply not the case. Undoubtedly many of those involved do vote PSF, but they are Irish-language schools with the support ranging across the political spectrum.
Posted by on Apr 30, 2007 @ 09:19 PMGeorge,
The main body promoting Irish medium education in the north is Comhairle na Gaelscolaiochta. It works with state, CCMS and independent schools. afaik it has no religious ethos.
Posted by on Apr 30, 2007 @ 09:20 PM“Don’t know about north of the border but of the nine new primary schools recognised in the Irish Republic”
I doubt schools in the South bare any resemblance to the ones in Northern Ireland.
“This one’s are red. ”
Excellent start (there’s a first time for everything then).
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 11:28 AMThe pity about some commenters is that they’re not just ignorant, they’re wilfully so. When someone points out to them that they’re entirely wrong about the uniforms question or the mixed nature of Gaelscoileanna, they persist in their self delusion in order to defend their prejudiced position. I send my son to an Irish medium naíscoil. If I thought for one second he was likely to be indoctrinated on any issue, to the extent that he would end up as an ignorant prejudiced git, as demonstrated in this board by some posters, then I would withdraw him straight away
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 12:54 PMOilibhear Chromaill
I’d like to know more about the “mixed nature” of Irish medium education in NI. Any links?
As for your commendable opposition to indoctrination “on any issue” do you think the naiscoil provides a balanced view on the use of Irish in NI?
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 01:40 PMI don’t know what point you’re trying to make Bonar Law. The Naiscoil is teaching my son through the medium of Irish. He has a good grasp of both Irish and English - he’s bilingual and he’s only three! - and I can see him gaining more languages as he grows older, and far easier than he would were he to attend an English only school, which, to my mind, is a far poorer reflection on the use of langauges in NI or, preferably, Ireland as a whole.
I think I can guide you to nuacht.com where you’ll find a brochure on the Irish medium education and it gives a fairly comprehensive insight into the sector. It’s a fact that people from Protestant/Unionist backgrounds send their children to Irish medium schools because they too can be openminded about not alone culture and identity but, also, education.
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 02:24 PMBeano, admit you’re wrong please. or at least provide some evidence of all these green and orange uniforms. Here’s another example.
http://www.stjohnthebaptist.org.uk/bunscoil_eoin_baiste.htm
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 03:00 PMUlster McNulty, what on earth is “a signed constitutional nationalist copy of the good Friday agreement” ??
and as far as i know david trimble is not a terrorist !!! so there wouldnt be any moral problem in selling any of his books would there??
bobby sands and johnny adair are both terrorists. it would disgust me to find their products being sold for something to do with children. surely you understand this??
the fact that still nobody has said anything about it just reinforces the view of most people that these schools are for hard line republican people who have at least a sympathetic view of ‘the ra’.also the fact that OC says he sends his kid to an irish school also fits into the ‘hardline republican’ view of the people that send their children there. (OC im not calling you sympathetic to the ira or anything but i think it would be fair to say you have quite an extreme republican view of things)
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 04:22 PMDear god alive, this is such crap from Eranu. There are countless people who send their children to Gaelscoileanna and politics doesn’t enter into the equation. We don’t send our children to be indoctrinated to any school. I don’t have an ‘extreme’ republican point of view. In fact I would consider myself moderate and informed, as distinct from your contribution which seems to be founded on bad doctrine and poor information and, yes, extreme anti Irishness.
Who the hell are the ‘Ra’? Is this the paramilitary group described in several IMC reports as ‘going out of business’ and dismantling itself. I’m no less sympathetic to this than say, for instance, Peter Robinson!
Bobby Sands was not a terrorist any more than Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. He was a prisoner of his circumstances and he could never ever be compared to Johnny Adair who is nothing more than a drug dealer/murderer/extortionist/whatever you’re having yourself. For what it’s worth, Bobby Sands was never convicted (in a Diplock Court or in any court) of murder or any of the offences ascribed to Mr Adair. A copy of his biography, signed by his surviving comrades, would be of value to some, not just in the republican community, but throughout the world. The fact that people like the good people who’ve set up this school in Downpatrick have to go to such lengths to raise funds for their school says more about the poor level of funding from official sources for Irish Medium Education, despite its proven educational value than it does about your misinformed and biased perceptions about the sector.
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 04:45 PMOilibhear Chromaill
“Bobby Sands was not a terrorist any more than Nelson Mandela was a terrorist”
“I don’t have an ‘extreme’ republican point of view. In fact I would consider myself moderate and informed”
Yeah, right.
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 05:37 PMBonarLaw,
I believe Margaret Thatcher once called Nelson Mandela a terrorist. Are you saying he wasn’t?Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 06:06 PMTo George
If Margaret Thatcher calls Mandela a terrorist that is good enough for me as she can do no wrong!
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 07:34 PMeranu
“Ulster McNulty, what on earth is “a signed constitutional nationalist copy of the good Friday agreement” ??”
You don’t know?
OK, I’ll tell you.
It’s the copy of the good Friday agreement signed by John Hume, (let’s call it “A"), which was included in the auction alongside the copy of the Bobby Sands biography signed by the survivng hunger strikers, (which I shall refer to as “B").
Now, if you conclude that the sale of “B”, which you call “a signed terrorist book”, implies that these schools are ‘up the ra training colleges’. Then you would equally have to concede that the sale of A implies that the schools are also “up the SDLP training colleges”.
There is also the matter of the bottle of whiskey to commemorate John Hume’s receipt of the Nobel prize (let’s call it “C"). It being the case that John Hume was a joint recipient, along with David Trimble, of the nobel prize, it would necessarily imply, following your logic, that these schools are also “up the Ulster Unionist Party training colleges”.
Posted by on May 02, 2007 @ 09:29 PMOC, if you’re moderate then dear help us :)
thats my opinion, ive nothing more to say really.UMcN, i see what you mean now by “a signed constitutional nationalist copy of the good Friday agreement” i thought you were talking about some sort of nationalist document.
terrorist biographys have nothing to do with a copy of the GFA or a bottle of whiskey. if you dont think selling them at a fundraising event for kids is a bad thing, then nothing im going to say will change that.
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 08:50 AMAccording to Bonar Law and Eranu, I’m an ‘extreme republican’ because I send my child to a naíscoil and view, for instance, Bobby Sands and Nelson Mandela in much the same light. Neither were ‘terrorists’ in the current use of the word but both were imprisoned for their opposition to the unjust and discriminatory state structures of the time. Both were convicted in kangaroo courts of spurious crimes and sentenced to periods of imprisonment. They were held as political hostages. Their captivity and the manner in which they endured it sent a message around the world about the injustice of the hostage takers. And, oh yes, both won out in the end although it took Bobby Sands death to light the way for republicans back into the full democratic process. Where are republicans today, why they’re sharing power in the north on an equal basis with unionists. And their aspirations to bring about a United Ireland are not alone intact but well advanced.
One of the most famous sayings ascribed to Bobby Sands is ”Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.” It seems it’s not alone the laughter but the language of our children is proving too much for Bonar Law and Eranu, the ‘moderates’ of this thread.
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 08:53 AM“According to Bonar Law and Eranu, I’m an ‘extreme republican’ because I send my child to a naíscoil”
nope, its from reading your posts over the last year or so.Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 09:10 AMIt wouldn’t take a year reading your posts, Eranu, to figure out you were politically challenged, ie unable to deal with a viewpoint different to your own without resorting to labels in a vain attempt to marginalise those who don’t conform to your narrow and illinformed way of thinking.
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 10:01 AMHi OC,
I actually thought you made a few good points up until you tried to claim that “your” terrorists are better than “ours”. To compare NI with apartheid SA is absolute nonsense. Mandela had no democratic option. The Ra did. A better comparison would be NI to Spain and the Basque situation. Do Basque nationalists have democratic options? Yip, just like nationalists in NI. Are ETA terrorists? Yip, just like their counterparts in the RA/UDA. Are they remotely similar to Nelson Mandela? Nope, no matter how hard their children laugh. Because, La Mon, Loughinisland or the like, aren’t that funny.
The sad thing is I think your kid probably does receive a “moderate” view at his school if this is the sort of nonsense you’re filling his head with, back in the homestead.
On a more positive note, I think it’s near time that state schools started teaching Irish Gaelic to counter the political baggage that it has been tainted with…
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 10:58 AMFrom your nearly literate response, Congal, I can only discern that whatever you learnt at school it wasn’t the mastery of the English language, never mind the Irish language.
And it definitely wasn’t the discipline to look at historic events and figures through some sort of objective prism. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the end of Apartheid was a bloodless affair. Not at all, the ANC, under the leadership of Mandela, was involved in all sorts of acts of terror. It didn’t have a democratic alternative - but then again neither did republicans in Northern Ireland dominated by political parties of the unionist hue with their own links to terror groups such as the UVF and the UDA, which, amazingly managed to remain legal during some of the worst years of the carnage.Sure there are comparisons between the IRA and ETA but the problem is there was never a real democratic alternative in the north until the GFA came about. And that wouldn’t have happened but for Bobby Sands and his comrades. You can’t take that in but your children will or their children will. History will recognise that I’m right and you, you poor deluded idiot, are wrong. Wrong about history and wrong about the Irish language.
You are right, however, to suggest that Irish be taught in State schools but not for the reasons stated but to give the same opportunity of a decent and broadbased education to the children attending those schools. Heaven forfend that they be confined to a system of education which turns out people as patently uneducated as yourself.
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 12:05 PMOilibhear,
I hope you don’t mind me saying but I think you have been sucked into a side track here and maybe allowed yourself to be wound up somewhat.
Its happened to myself and I understand but I think that when and if discussing issues concerning the Gaelic language it is important to stick to the issue.
I think however that the exercise that we are engaged in is rather pointless, i.e. we are dicussing minority language educational provision with people who clearly have no knowledge of it.
The reality is that the majority of people posting here, especially those who are most strident in their views and sure of their correctness, have never been in an IME school, never met a teacher or pupil, perhaps never even physically seen a school even and most important of all have never even heard a conversation in Irish.
This point occurred to me last night when myself and a friend bought petrol in a unionist area, I go out of the car and continiued speaking until I noticed him glaring at me - Béarla! (’English’), was the sole word uttered, instinctively we switched, keeping on safe side but ensuring the continuation of ignorance.
What the point of the discussion therefore?
On a point of information I would point out that IMEs follow the uk ‘national curiculam’ and that the school inspection reports are available on-line on the Dept. of Education website.
One more thing, do you think that Gaelscoileanna are too focused on English speaking kids? I suspect that a slim majority of native speaking kids don’t actually attend a Gaelscoil, which is a pity in my view but I can understand it to a certain extent.
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 12:41 PMIndeed, Gael, that is the case. I’ve been dragged up a side alley by these louts in order to facilitate the venting of their own petty and illinformed prejudices regarding IME. I suppose I brought it on myself but once in a fight, I’m going to make damn sure that the other fellow(s) realise they’re in a fight too.
I’ll have to get back to you on the other points you’ve raised as time is of the essence at present.
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 12:47 PMHi OC,
I never suggested that the end of apartheid was a bloodless affair. With your “mastery” of the language I’m sure ye can point out where I did. All I suggested was that the comparison of NI with apartheid era SA is ridiculous and does a disservice to those persecuted under the apartheid system.
“History will recognise that I’m right and you, you poor deluded idiot, are wrong. Wrong about history and wrong about the Irish language.”
Personal attacks usually signify that you’ve lost the argument. What next? I suppose I’m a nazi/racist as well…
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 12:55 PMPlease knock the personal jibes on the head. The rule is ball not man.
Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 01:20 PMOC, you say “these louts” right after coming off with a rant like this -
“It wouldn’t take a year reading your posts, Eranu, to figure out you were politically challenged, ie unable to deal with a viewpoint different to your own without resorting to labels in a vain attempt to marginalise those who don’t conform to your narrow and illinformed way of thinking.”
wind yer neck in!the subject of the thread is casual nationalism in the IME. not about teaching the language or anything else. you are taking yourself up a side alley.
my opinion is that its more like the extreme end of republicans ‘in the IME’. the bobby sands book would seem to back that up.Posted by on May 03, 2007 @ 01:29 PM
