Wednesday, August 06, 2008
Irish exports to the far side of Switzerland from the 7th Century
I recall some years ago now working for a day in the Kantonsschule at Heerbrugg in St Gallen, and being bowled over by the demi hero status I rapidly acquired amongst the staff there when I inadvertently revealed I’d been brought up and had lived so close to Bangor. I admit to having been completely confused. As it turns out the whole Swiss Canton is named after Gall, an Irish monk who travelled with Columbanus from Bangor to the shores of Lake Constance where he became a Hermit. Later when a monastic community was set up there, they took the name of the old Irish saint whose relics had been taken inside the church. Mairtin has news on the cultural links between Bangor and St Gallen which adhere to this day:
The Irish manuscripts at St Gallen are the oldest in the world and among the most beautiful depicting in stylish script and with great ornamentation the story of the Gospels. The Irish monks, who worked under a vow of silence did write small poems and notes in the glosses. One, said Frau Hufenus, wrote “rough parchment, thin ink”, giving out about the quality of his tools while another, correcting a poorly finished page, wrote: “too much beer”.
Which may explain why the locals became so endeared to those few old Irish monks…
Mick Fealty @ 12:52 PM
Nice post Mick, varies from the norm and reminds of the cultural aim of slugger, normally lost in politics.
Though if there are more than 6 posts it is a sure thing that even this will be polluted.
BTW, what is the etymology of ‘Fealty’?
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 01:58 PMIn English it means ‘loyalty’ (no sniggering at the back!). Though my father told me the name as Gaeilge is rendered O’ Dícheallaigh, the common spelling in the part of Donegal where it originates is O’Ficheallaigh.
It doesn’t have to be so. But people give up too early on the thoughtful consideration of views they disagree with. I’d like to think it was just an old habit borne out of the conflict. But it happens on the Brassneck blog, and in the British blogoshere more generally.
Just have to savour the exceptional moments of engagement when they come along!
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 02:11 PMhmmm.
I was thinking of Ó Fichealtaigh, an Ulster form of Ó Ficheallaigh (originally Ó Fithcheallaigh), an epenthetic ‘t’ often inserting inself in the place of a double ‘ll’. [cf. dícheall > díchealt]
Thats my theory anyway. Then I thought it might be an English name. Interesting.
Now I must figure out who was Fithcheallach.
Maybe its this fella http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dluthach_mac_Fithcheallach
Of course Dineen defines Fithcheallach as a form of Fidhcheallach - ‘chess player’.
Well, well. The game is afoot.
I am not a stalker btw, just love names!!!
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 02:23 PMYou’re right about the ‘t’. I think that’s the way they spell it. There’s a small monument to a group of fishermen who lost their lives in the twenties out of Ballywhoriskey harbour, and I think that’s the way it is spelt there.
Any light you can throw on it, would be gratefully received. The English version of the name is highly localised to that area. Usual stories about French shipwrecks, but none of us looks remotely French, or Spanish.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 02:32 PMMick,
If I come upon anything Ill let you know. Thanks for the info. The Fanad link is interesting.
I think any English, Spanish or French origin can be discounted. Remarkably there seems to be nothing written on this name to date.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 02:39 PMHe was an Ulster-Scots monk Goddammit!! He was from Bangor… why the attempt to distort Ulster’s history and identity into anything other than a British one?
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 02:40 PMIt underlines the fact that contrary to what the English/British imperialists later said to justify their invasion and occupation, the Irish were in fact a well educated and civilised people, and in fact I would contend that we were literate before the English, and that during the Dark Ages the Irish monks played an important role in reviving literacy and learning through establishing centres of learning across Europe including in Britain.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 02:53 PMHealth warning: don’t feed the trolls!
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 02:59 PMAnother amusing fact is that there was in ancient times a colony of Coptic monks at Crumlin, which probably explains the warm welcome extended to those latter day Coptic Saints, the Shoukri brothers.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 03:17 PMIrish exports, Irish monks, Irish language????....Can anyone say this with a straight face these days? It’s Gaelic, Irish is a Nationalism.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 03:34 PMWhile travelling on the Vienna metro a few months ago I was intrigued to see posters of St Coloman around the carriage. The locals explained that he’s the patron saint of Vienna and apparently hailed from Sligo. So… in your face Bangor.
Before any sycophants ask about the etymology of ‘El Paso’, it’s Spanish for The Pass. It doesn’t refer to the border though, rather a pass in the local mountains. Fancy that!Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 03:40 PM”It underlines the fact that contrary to what the English/British imperialists later said to justify their invasion and occupation, the Irish were in fact a well educated and civilised people, and in fact I would contend that we were literate before the English, and that during the Dark Ages the Irish monks played an important role in reviving literacy and learning through establishing centres of learning across Europe including in Britain.”
FutureTaoiseach, what part of ‘Irish’ history did the people think of themselves as being Irish and Nationally united?
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 03:40 PM“Maria Frau Hufenus now speaking at Culturlann on links between Bangor and St Gallen via the monk t St Gall who left these shores in the 7th century (in 612 Gallen bulit a solitary monastic cell there).”
This may well be significant in understanding the O’Neil dynasty. The modern day O’Neil’s take their surname from Niall Glundubh Mac Aedo, not from Niall of the Nine Hostages.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 03:51 PMGreat thread
“too much beer”
*sigh* way too many of my posts underscore that point.Mick maybe you were that monk in a previous incarnation.
Studies show that people tend to be unconsciously drawn to places where they previously dwelt.George William Russell (April 10, 1867 – July 17, 1935) who wrote under the pseudonym Æ, was an Irish Nationalist, critic, poet, and painter. He was also a mystical writer, and centre of a group of followers of theosophy in Dublin, for many years.
AE claimed to be a clairvoyant, able to view various kinds of spiritual beings, which he illustrated in paintings and drawings.In one of his books he claimed to be able to lie on a certain hillside and revisit the ancient battles:
The akashic records (akasha is a Sanskrit word meaning “sky”, “space” or “aether") is a term used in theosophy to describe a compendium of mystical knowledge encoded in a non-physical plane of existence.
These records are described to contain all knowledge of human experience and the history of the cosmos.
They are metaphorically described as a library and other analogues commonly found in discourse on the subject include a ‘universal computer’ and the ‘Mind of God’.Was this what AE was tapping into?
Oh is that the time ;)
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 04:16 PM“Was this what AE was tapping into?”
The Tao of Slugger eh?
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 04:25 PM“FutureTaoiseach, what part of ‘Irish’ history did the people think of themselves as being Irish and Nationally united?”
Well there was a common language, and furthermore the position of High King of Ireland has been around for thousands of years so I would contend that sense of a common Irish identity goes back centuries.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 04:28 PMMick sure wasn’t it St Brendan himself who discovered the new World, he must ‘a had arms like Popeye to row that far though !
FutureTaoiseach, UMH thinks because there was no central system of government in Ireland in the mideval times that any claims to irish sel-determination are thus null and void. No doubt his colonial empire mind thinks britain should still be ruling all those former colonies with a smiliar history. When we do finally get rid of the british presence in the north of Ireland (the govt, not those who claim to be british) he will probably expect us to dig up the roads and hand the tarmac back to Mother Britain.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 05:00 PMBangor ? Cultural links ? Ye gods what next ?
St Gallen was one of many Irish monks who traversed the Frankish Kingdoms is search of religious consultancy projects . Apparently the great Charlemagne insisted on having some of these learned Scotti (Irish in Latin ) resident at his various castles around the kingdom .
IIRC it was these ‘monks ‘ who first invented the concept of the King being God’s anointed and thus anybody who usurped the King’s power or revolted or tried to stage a coup was disobeying God’s law and thus a sure cert for hellfire etc etc . Not surprising then that these upholders of emerging nation state stability were much esteemed by many of the Frankish Kings ( present day France /Germany /Lowlands /Italy and Switzerland .
But like everything else they eventually outstayed their welcome and became a nuisance to the emerging powerful monarchs who did not take kindly to being told by these ‘peregrini’ that slaughtering their kinfolk or anybody who got in their way of accumulating more power , loot, territory was a ‘mortaler ‘
Many of these ‘religious ‘ consultants were forced back to Ireland to the great annoyance of local emerging chieftains many of whom did not take kindly to their admonishions :)
St Gallen was of course much luckier than St Kilian whose ‘head’ was served up on a large platter to a bunch of 6 th century Germans . Apparently St Kilian like St Kevin of Glendalough looked upon women with disparity and this was not appreciated by a German princess who apparently was attracted in a non saintly way to Kilian . His refusal to bed said Princess not only caused her to lose her head and go complain to Daddy German Chieftain but also reulted in Kilian losing his also .
Kilian’s name lives on in Germany where it is extant mostly in the south west of that country IIRC .
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 05:01 PM“...in fact I would contend that we were literate before the English,” says FutureTaoiseach
and begobs, don’t you know, I think he might be right.
I once found myself before some Englishmen in a pub in Fleet Street and when one of them asked me if I could read the logo on his T-shirt, I was honestly able to answer, “Yes!”. That sure showed ‘em.
“Blimey!” they said, “you must be bleedin’ Irish”.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 06:39 PM“...in fact I would contend that we were literate before the English,” says FutureTaoiseach
Hmm. But does that make any sense?
In simplistic terms, as a distinct language Irish as a thousand years or so on English so no real comparison can be made.
In fact it is probable that the English learned how to read Latin before the Irish.
It is quite true that the Ui Neill descend from Niall Glandubh but it should be pointed out that Niall Glandubh was himself a descendent of Niall Naoighiallach and that it may have just be coincidence that Niall Glandubh was of the period when the Gaels effectively invented surnames.
I think UMH motivations could well be how discribed but let us not forget that until the famine most people in Ireland would not have understood the word ‘Irish’, describing themselves as Gael, as did the Gaelic Scots and Manx. Gael, I am informed on Slugger is interpreted as a racial form by some unionists.
The term Eireannach does mean ‘Irish person’ in Gaelic but it is not traditonally the normal way that Gaels describe nor describe themselves, more ‘person of Ireland’ than Irish.
Gaelic speech continues to distingush between the two.
The relationship between the word Gael and Irish is a debate without any solution as many see them as meaning the same but many see them as radically different.
Even Irish people opposed to Gaelic culture can be annoyed when it is put to them that they are therefore no longer a Gael - BTW it doesnt matter to me what people call themselves.
In Scotland the term Gael and Highlander were one and the same but in recent times, say the last 50 years the term Gael in English has come to mean a gaelic speaker alone although in Gaelic speeck Gael (Gaidheal) may be taken to apply to any highlander.
There is an interesting paralell between the views of harder Gaelic activists and the likes of UMH in that for some the term Irish is of little importance, prefering to remain, simply a Gael, or ... Na Gaeil Abu as one might say.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 07:53 PMggn,
There was also the term Gael Gall for those people in Ireland who had been Gaelicised or Hibernicised e.g among others vikings , normans and old english etc .
Did the Donegal/Tyrone Gaelic speakers have a word/words to describe the so called ‘planters’ ? Oraistighthe ( Orashtiheh )doesn’t cut it IMO - Gall ( Gowel ) ? Daoine Bearla ? Protastunaigh ? Any idea .
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 08:25 PMGreenflag,
“Did the Donegal/Tyrone Gaelic speakers have a word/words to describe the so called ‘planters’ ? Oraistighthe ( Orashtiheh )doesn’t cut it IMO - Gall ( Gowel ) ? Daoine Bearla ? Protastunaigh ? Any idea .”
Yes. Until very recently Albannaigh ‘scotsmen’ was used in Ulster Irish. In fact Albannaigh can be taken to mean ‘protestant’ in Ulster Irish though this is no longer really acceptable.
The term Gall was not used in recent times for this purpose though it may have been in previous times.
In modern times people normally say Protastúnaigh, Gall being a bit strong, especially given the fact that many Protestant simply arent Gaill - respecting their wishes of course.
For example Nelson McCausland is an ‘Ulster-Scot’, he has chosen to ignore the Gaelic part of his background, fair enough, but hardly a Gall.
It must be stressed that Gall is in no way an offensive term, it is simply a term to decribe non-Gaels.
Traditionally a protestant churchman was known as An Ministear Gallda, though again this is no longer acceptable.
Orangemen are in Irish Na Fir Buí ‘literally the yellow>orange men’.
Interesting discussion, but without solution.
The only thing to be certain is that not all Irishmen are Gaels and not every Gael is Irish.
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 08:39 PMWhilst not relevant there was an interesting article in todays Independent for those of you who might care !
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 09:23 PMRepublicanstones
I never thought those Picts were politically correct....
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 09:26 PMEl Paso
Is Leopold not the patron saint of Vienna, on whose day there is a public holiday?
Posted by on Aug 06, 2008 @ 10:25 PM
