Monday, June 26, 2006
IRA and Sinn Fein both at protest…
In marked contrast to last year, the Orange parade on the Springfield Road passed off without serious incident. As Susanne Breen notes, there were some prominent figures in both Sinn and the IRA to make sure the protest remained quiet and dignified. As Breen notes, “The cost of policing the march and the subsequent rioting was over £3m”.
Mick Fealty @ 01:36 PM
just a wee question for the nationalists who regularly post on parade threads-
Is it just coincidence that the local residents’ groups always seem to “appoint"( or perhaps more properly “have appointed for them") prominent (ex???) IRA personalities as their leaders? When was this latest group formed, and how many members has it? What are the membership criteria?
I don’t like Gerry Kelly, but at least we know (roughly) the size of his mandate.I mean, if you were a cynic, you’d almost think that SF set up these groups when it suited them- on an extremely charitable interpretation to control their communities-or on a more realistic view to have an outlet for the youth of their areas if they needed to turn up the pressure>
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 02:01 PMYes thats right darth.
We nationalists - by golly we’re just so silly that we can only be grateful that those big fellas with the haircuts come along and organise our community groups for us. Give the young fellas a bit of run out and tell us to stop walking on the grass - that sort of thing. We need to be told what to do you know. Just a pity the unionists aren’t up to the task anymore, but at least we have Sinn Fein and the IRA men to tell us croppies to lie down. And thank goodness.
Thats the way we like it cos we can’t think for ourselves darth.Did the cynics ever stop to think that maybe they are involved in the republican movement because they are active members of republican communities? Which could actually also explain why they get involved in things that effect that community?
Hmmm - maybe not. Sounds almost logical. Lets just revert to the old “community control” dogma - it makes it that much easier to understand if yer a cynic.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 02:13 PMWell said circles, this one always amuses me, darth get your head around this. Like Republicans and Democrats in the US or Labour and Tory Party members in England, bar the odd psycho or British tout Irish republicans are political activists. As such they get involved with their local community in much the same manner as political activists everywhere. Wether it be on local councils, tenants associations, governing committees of schools etc.
Nothing devious, surprising or underhand about this, as anyone who has been involved in local politics will know, this is how it works and the fact is such political work is as boring as hell, so few wish to do it. Loyalist parades can be a problem for many republican/nationalist communities for obvious reasons, so communities set up organizations to decide how to deal with them and who represents their interest in negotiations with the powers that be.
Garth I have taught you to suck eggs go forth and democratize.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 02:45 PMvery good dummy, circles,neatly avoiding the issue-almost, but only if you accept the idea of an homogenous “republican community"-pure and unadulterated by outsiders-like SDLP supporters,Poles, Asians and ,er..Prods, natch.
Thus the Springfield community is presented as uniformly republican, and the group decides it speaks for all persons in the Springfield road-including the Methodist Church presumably, without ever obtaining a mandate, and indeed presumably by an arbitrary drawing of a boundary to suit is definition-y’know-gerrymandering, if there was ever an election to the residents’ group, which of course there isn’t ever going to be.
Well shucks, I’ve been at many an election count, and its amazing to see boxes from Dunloy with votes for Paisley, or votes for the SDLP in Sandy Row, and I wouldn’t ever be so presumtuous as to say that these people by daring to hold different views weren’t members of the community. So in actual fact it’s those very people who abrogate unto themselves the right to say what people think-until these single-issue groups can demonstrate that they exist outside to confines of stirring up trouble when it suits them, and turning off the tap again when it doesn’t.
And I don’t think for one minute you’re so stupid that you don’t know all of this-but hey, the people have to be led- or driven- for the greater goal, don’t they?
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 03:28 PMWell actually darth, I think you’re stretching now. Nobody ever said that SDLP voters, or Poles, Asians (quite a huge blanket you’ve thrown over that particular group - not that you think they all look alike or anything is it darth?) were part of the republican community. Part of the community - most certainly - but that doesn’t make them republicans.
Those men and women in republican groups are REPUBLICAN community activists - which means that they are active republicans (what part of this is so complicated?). The fact that the SDLP activists don’t show at things like this is a greater reflection on SDLP activists than it is on republicans I think you’d agree.
The springfield road is not being represented as being uniformly republican - but the active republicans on the springfield road are simply froming a group to reflect their opinion.
Now you can hmmm and hahhh and try and find a way out of the corner you have painted yourself into with you first post (which was, lets face it, quite daft), but it doesn’t change the reply that both mick and myself gave.
But still, if you insist on seeing the picutre you have in your head, no amount of logic is going to help you see anything else.Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 06:06 PMdarth, you sound just like a KKK Klansman or a Southern US segregationist of 40 years ago, “All those white boys and uppity Northern niggers comin’ down here to stir up our nigras who were just happy ol’ folks until they got ‘em stirred up.”
Pure nonsense, darth. Those good folk had been seething in silence for a long, long time and all it took was a little l;eadership and a little organization to bring it all to the surface.
The point you are missing is that all the leadership and all the organization wouldn’t have gotten off the ground if the resentmanent and anger had not been not there to begin with.
And, that resentment and anger in NI nationalists can be laid right on the British political establishment and the unionist community that supported the legalized discrimination and the unionist thuggery—if only by their shameful silence and steadfast refusal to do anything to straighten out the mess.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 06:07 PMcircles if you know anything at all you would have to agree whether you like it or nor darth is as about spot on as one can get , as someone who knows exactly how these schemes work, s/f have made sure every community appointment is acceptable to themselves alone, I dont like having to admit darth is correct but honesty is the name of the game we should play here and not petty politics ,and if you come from a nationalist area you would know this to be true.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 06:38 PMmartin,
Despite sundry attempts at misinformation nothing has disturbed the growth in support for Sinn Fein. Does Team Ingram now fancy attempting to persuade us that they have all suddenly become uber republicans or is this just another attempt to avoid being posted to the Eastern Front?
I think we should be told.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 06:46 PMmartin,
The best measure of a ‘representative’ is the ballot box, surely?
Take a look at all of the results in the Springfield Road area over the last decade and you’ll see that Sinn Fein actually do represent the voice of the people, expressed democratically and privately, even where they have alternatives. You may not agree with them, but you cannot deny their mandate.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 06:46 PMmartin - I come from a nationalist area and know that the people involved in the work of community groups are the people who are dedicated to the community. The constitution of community groups has bog all to do with shadey Shinners sitting in a smoke filled room vetting out unacceptable candidates to achieve their master plan of community domination. Its dictated by people from the area who get up of their backsides and actually do something for where they come from.
Now for some this may be a more scarey idea (that reps and nationalists are active of their own free will) than imagining Gerry and the bogeymen appointing local barons to run the empire - but its the truth martin - and if YOU came from a nationalist area you would know this.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 07:02 PMdear stephen agus 2016 lads I need to inform ye a word you should be familiar with if you are as fond of s/f as you appear to be ,I am not the martin you think I am , I am not as clever or as waitfor it well informed as the said gentleman, no my friends my information comes from the street ,I for my sins was a member of big house Gerry,s s/f president for life litte team ,that was in the days that a bullet was the expected result for putting community politics to the fore, I have long since parted company with the shinners, and before you say ach sure your just an oauld dissident my friends you could not be futher from the truth, I watched s/f morph from a party that famously declared that it was grass root lead to just a bunch of grass,s
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 07:04 PMA bit disgruntled then are ye? Poor wee lamb martin - but that doesn’t make you right, sorry.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 07:09 PMIt doesn’t really come as a surprise that so many names caused multiple personality disorder.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 07:14 PMdisgruntled is not the word I would use circlec mo cara , no I would rather use the word sad,Iwatched good men and women die for what ,er um I wish to nominate Ian Paisley lord Divis St as first minister jasus circles dont please tell me that was just tatics ,my sides could,nt take it, what the hell was the last 30 years about, putting a bunch of carpetbaggers into stormont,is that what the hunger strikers died for ,
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 07:23 PMDon’t worry, martin, I had no illusions that you were friend Grantham. His style is, shall we say, different.
I respect your personal kmowledge, which I do not share, since I am not from west Belfast. My point is a more theoretical one - if SF have morphed away from what they once were, and yet the voters still vote for them, then have the voters not also morphed?
Maybe both voters and votees are moving in the same direction, and maybe there will always be some people - perhaps you are one of them? - who move is a slightly (or radically) different direction. That is neither new nor surprising. SF is not the United Irishmen, nor the Fenians, not the Parnellites nor the Redmondites. They are not even the SF of the early 20th century. So if they are also no longer the SF of 1969, is that a surprise? Times change, and so do political projects and methods. If we, the voters, disagree, then we can dump them and chose another brand, just as our great-grandparents dumped Redmond.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 08:02 PMCircles
“but the active republicans on the springfield road are simply froming a group to reflect their opinion.”Well Circles, I think you summed it up actually - whether you intended to or not is a different matter.
What you have clearly stated is actually the case - the group on the Springfield Rd (and in other areas) is representative of the republican community, but not necessarly the community as a whole.
We know that republicans dont like parades. The point darth made, and which you have backed up, unwittingly or not, is that republicans dont equate to the whole community, even in places like the Springfield Rd. What about having a group which is actually representative of everyone in the area? That too much to ask? And before you harp on about the OO not being representative - they never claimed to be. The difference is that these ‘residents’ groups pass themselves off as being the authentic voice of the community - all the community supposedly whereas they would be a little more honest in marketing themselves as ‘anti-parade groups’.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 08:14 PMmakes a lot of sense Stephen , but politics should be for the betterment of all the people, and politicans have a duty to remember that they cannot play god with peoples lives it is what they have been doing here and it fuckin stinks
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 09:04 PMPerhaps if there were less paramilitaries and loyalist paramilitary bands at orange order parades, they may be a little less contentious.
Loyalist paramilitaries kill catholics, you know.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 09:08 PMWhy doesn’t one of the countless quangoes here do an independent survey of the area to find out how people viewed the weekend?
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 10:25 PM“Loyalist paramilitaries kill catholics, you know.”
Yup, according to the Sutton database, 686 Catholic civilians, i.e. innocent bystanders, were killed by the death squads. And that’s not counting the Protestants who were killed because the thugs thought they were Catholics.
I have to wonder just why out unionist posters can’t seem to understand or appreciate why Catholics might not welcome OO parades which hire death squad bands and carry death squad flags and other paraphenalia on the streets in front of their homes. Very inconsiderate of those protesters. After all ....... it’s only an expression of unionist culture, right?
And just why should those Catholics who have to live in homes with bricked up windows complain? After all, throwing bombs, rocks, paint and assorted missiles at Catholic homes is just another expression of unionist “curlture”, right?
I suggest less quibbling and more downright honesty and respect for others would be a welcome response from unionism.
Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 11:52 PMIt seems to me that the “nationalists” are slowly being forced to admit that they do/did support the IRA in word and deed, since they not only tolerate but support advocates of murder as their community representatives.
The excuse/explanation that darth whatsit offers on a plate is that they are scared witless of ending up like McCartney if they protest too loudly.
Ask yourselves what if, in fact, all those witnesses in the bar that night who were in the toilet all at the same time were there because they support the men accused and condone what they did, rather than as we are assured, they are simply that afraid of them?
And which excuse/explanation plays better with your sponsors in London, Dublin, Washington?
Really lads, yer not doing yerselves any favours letting the mask slip like that…Posted by on Jun 26, 2006 @ 11:59 PMHe does write well, our Darth.
Not daft, either.
Posted by on Jun 27, 2006 @ 12:13 AM“they not only tolerate but support advocates of murder as their community representatives.”
Three points”
First of all: while the PIRA may well have been guilty of murder, HMG and the death squads are far more guilty. Between them, the security forces and their death squads killed 1.064 civilians. And, to this day, the unionist community and its political, civic and religious leadership has done little—nothing is more accurate—to put an end to their terrorist campaign. So, I suggest that the hypocrisy of the unionists is total.
Second point: When you are talking about murder, you are NOT talking about killing combatants on the field of battle. So, let’s take anoth look at the numbers. The security forces and their death squads killed 1,383 all told, of which 1.064—almost 77%—were civilians. On the other hand, the Provisional IRA killed 1,706 all told. of which 516 --slightly more than 30%—were civilians. It is blatantly clear that the PIRA targetted combatants, i.e. soldiers and paramilitarized police, while the secuirity forces and their death squads targetted civilians, i.e. innocent bystanders.
Third: it was John Hume, leader opf the nationalist party, the SDLP, who did the real work of bringing about a PIRA ceasefire.
Sorry, nic, but the facts simply do not support your analysis
Posted by on Jun 27, 2006 @ 03:10 AMoh bob, so the murder of soldiers and policemen in cold blood, often in their beds at night is totally acceptable to you - you are such a nice guy. many of these soldiers were either ex-soldiers, part-time or yound english men, placed against their will in this hell hole, but shooting them in the back of the hear with a sniper rifle is perfectly fine I take it - charming. Combatants my ass, they were doing their job, what they were ordered to do by the British Government.
Posted by on Jun 27, 2006 @ 07:26 AMIf Darth Rumsfeld has his way and the Springfield Road community is not to be represented by the political and community leaders of the overwhelming majority of its residents but instead by the spokesmen for a small non-homogenous group of SDLP supporters, Methodist church goers, Poles and Asians then I have something to add.
Back in the 1960’s I often stayed over at a friend’s house in the area when we had been out late at a dance or a party and I do believe I once left a toothbrush which may still be there. Shouldn’t I have a deciding voice too? I’ve often wondered what it would feel like to impose my views on a whole community and this would be an ideal opportunity.
Posted by on Jun 27, 2006 @ 09:24 AM
