Monday, October 20, 2008
“in defiance of political opinion in the North..”
Ahead of Wednesday scheduled debate in the Commons on equalising “the right to have access to safe and legal abortion” across the UK, in the Irish Times, Frank Millar mentions the contrast in governmental attitude to other recent debates on rights and equality..
DUP junior minister Jeffrey Donaldson last week suggested that any attempt to liberalise the law in Northern Ireland would trigger “a constitutional crisis” and could “put an end” to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Few senior figures at Westminster appear to actually believe this, although the government plainly does not want any form of confrontation given the current stand-off between the DUP and Sinn Féin over the devolution of policing and justice powers.
The British government has acted twice in the past year in defiance of political opinion in the North - in lowering and equalising the age of sexual consent, and in outlawing discrimination on sexual orientation grounds in the provision of goods and services.
And it’s not just on rights issues that the government has been keen to emphasise the desirability of harmonising the law across the UK..
Pete Baker @ 09:03 AM
I’m a Unionist, have always voted so, and will always do so. I think it’s abhorrent that girls from this part of the U.K. are forced to travel to other parts of the same country to have abortions. I fully support allowing abortion in this part of the United Kingdom, in line with the law in the rest of the country.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 11:00 AMConstitutional crisis? In what sense? The UK parliament makes law for the UK how is that a crisis? Maybe Donaldson should have gone to University so he could actually understand the constitution, didn’t he have a place at Cambridge? LOL. Funny how his unionism take second place to his own fundamentalist Christianity when push comes to shove.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 11:56 AMI heard Jeffrey Donaldson on Woman’s Hour this morning arguing with a good deal of self-righteousness that MPs from the rest of the UK should keep off his turf - ‘I am an MP for Lagan Valley’ - and not vote to change the law in Northern Ireland. An odd position, given that he and other NI MPs had no qualms about voting to reduce English women’s access to abortion last year.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 12:05 PMIts just asking too much to expect intellectual consistency from the likes of Donaldson. A small and small minded, ill educated, ignorant man. He is purely a reactionary and not capable of holding together a sensible and consistent political philosophy. The job of an MP is to legislate in the UK parliament for the UK. Ergo he votes on issues that will impact England, Wales, Scotland and they vote on things that impact NI. Some issues are devolved to regional parliaments and the UK parliament does not legislate on those. However it could if it wished to because it is sovereign. I would send him a copy of Dicey so he could figure all this out but I suspect he would just burn it along with all the other books he doesn’t understand.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 12:35 PMIt’s a shame we can’t be given a referendum on this issue. The vast majority of politicians favour the status quo, but they’re not necessarily representative of the electorate (how many people give their preference on polling day on the basis of the candidate’s stance on abortion?). If there was a referendum, I’ve no doubt that the anti-abortion side would win, but it’s the margin of the win I’d be interested in. Those who are pro choice don’t always feel confident in expressing this view; the safety of the ballot box would perhaps give them the confidence.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 01:06 PMInteligence Insider
I am not a Unionist and would never vote Unionist even if I could but I think that you are right.On this highly emotive issue I have to go with the pro-choice option.I believe that in a way to be anti-abortion can seem an easier option but unless this were backed up with high levels of support for young women and high levels of child care provision and assistance,From what I have seen of Irish society on both sides of the border they are quick to codemn both abortion and having to pay for unwanted children.They should not be allowed to have it both ways.In an ideal world better contraception would ease the problem but we do not see to have solved the situation yet by a longway.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 01:11 PMIs there still a social stigma on unmarried motherhood? I don’t really think so, and certainly not in the cities.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 01:20 PMblinding ,
‘In an ideal world better contraception would ease the problem but we do not see to have solved the situation yet by a longway. ‘
Go to Holland - do not pass go -do not collect 200 pounds and see how the Dutch handle these very emotive issues with practical common sense . They have access to ‘abortion’ and yet one of the lowest rates of same in the world .
The developed Anglosphere countries much more so than EU countries seem to rely on ‘abortion’ as the contraceptive of last resort other than using ‘contraception’ as a practical means of avoiding abortion . Well thats what the numbers tell us . As part of the Anglopher both Northern Ireland and the Republic can indulge in the ‘irresponsible ’ behaviour of unplanned ‘pregnancies ’ and rely on English /Scots/Welsh to provide the services our politicians would rather not see are provided .
Donaldson is no different than many of the Republic’s politicians who look to muti seat constituencies and wonder if opening their mouth on the issue could cost them their seat . Twenty years ago - it would . Today it’s less likely particularly in urbanised areas.
They can I’m sure find an ‘irish solution ’ to this emotive problem on both sides of the border . Perhaps this is an area whereby a common approach to this issue would help to keep crossing the border from becoming a replacement fro taking the ferry or a shuttle flight to some major English city .
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 01:44 PMgreenflag totally agree the first line should be contraceptives to avoid these unwanted pregnancies. No one wants lot of abortions but it should be up to the mother to choose if she wants to carry it or not.
Donaldson is in Lagan Valley as an MP so its an FPTP system not a multiple member seat. Its multiple STV for the Assembly only. No Donaldons believes what he is saying. One thing to remember with the wee wee wee fella is that he is a christian fundy and it skews his perception of everything. He does not live in the world of the 21st century or the mostly secular wider UK. He is also not very bright and is not someone who has self educated to make up for a lack of University education. Robinson didn’t go to Uni but he is smarter and has read around over the years. Donaldson has not. Her can quote the bible at you but not much else.
Oh yes and before anyone points it out in this case its quite hard to tell the difference between a small round wind filled bag of skin and a football.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 02:32 PMI don’t really see the relevance of a university education to this debate Duncan to be honest. After all, Dodds has a first in Law from Cambrdige doesn’t he?
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 02:39 PMI do not see the bearing of a university education to this debate or many others.
I am extremely well educated but I meet tens of people everyday far more intelligent and certainely far more successful than I, therefore I must conclude that a a university education is quite irrelevent.
Primark (just for example) is absolutely full of phds.
Sean Quinn left school at 14, his ability, sucess and intelligence cannot be questioned however.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 02:59 PMConstitutional crisis?
What is he going to do? Appeal to her Majesty to overrule the elected Parliament? I don’t think so.
Declare UDI? The rest of the UK would love that. Think of the money they would save. Presumably the DUP has a secret war chest out of which they will pay pensions etc.
AS Duncan says, he’s just a windbag.Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 03:19 PMThe relevance, Garibaldy, of a ‘university education’ to this debate, is to illustrate how modest and charming its beneficiaries are. As Dunkers demonstrates post after post. It must make you more than a little envious that you didn’t, I assume, get to go to the, ahem, “University of Essex”.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 03:48 PMLove you too ‘Why?’. Actually lots of people don’t get a Uni education but are able to educate themselves through experience and reading. Its not the be all and end all. My point is that Donaldson is a small minded man who has not done that. If he had gone to University he ‘might’ have learned something about thinking and reading, of course like many others who do go he might not. Equally he could have done it anyway but he didn’t. Of course the real point is that DUP lurkers on here will no doubt read it and I know that wee wee wee Jeffrey has a chip the size of himself on his shoulder about not going, that is why he comes up with shit about non existent Cambridge offers. Just poking at a sad little man’s insecurities. I am a mean mean man.
What’s wrong with the University of Essex? Besides you missed out my masters from Queens and Harvard.(ahem)
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 05:27 PM“What’s wrong with the University of Essex?”
The architecture?
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 05:34 PMDuncan
You left the ball behind some time ago in this thread.
If you could try to refocus on it?
And, Donaldson’s comments aside, the main point here is the UK government’s apparent inconsistency.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 05:35 PMGeorge W Bush has an MBA from Harvard. ‘nuff said.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 05:35 PMI don’t of course mind posts like the one below being deleted, but as has been said before - doing so sans indication of redaction does nothing for Slugger’s wider credibility. You won;t find that many Unionists who will disagree with the proposition that, in the last 12 months, Slugger has become something of a Nationalist echo chamber. All that said, I would like it to stand that, poor old DSD *was* indeed capable of being baited into Harvarding within a solitary poster (and that yours truly has rather gleefully won a 50 quid bet off that sad, sad fact).
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[play the ball - edited moderator]
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 05:48 PMAs I suspect you’ve gathered by now Pete, I’m for one perfectly willing to ‘play the ball’. Though I *was* curious as ever to know e.g. quite how long the distinctly off-ball goulderising of Mister-I’m-Proud-of-Being-in-Mensa would pass Slugger Admin by. Consistency is a deeply boring virtue, but it does make for a simpler life.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 06:06 PMSo anyway, moving back to the issue of harmonisation of abortion across the UK…
If I could just echo the initial poster’s thoughts, with the exception of the Unionist voter bit.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 06:44 PMSlug,Yep fair enough there its some ugly concrete. Driftwood, true but that is the school over the river so what do you expect.
Why?. Ok interesting bet don’t spend it all in one place. I am proud I went to Harvard actually. Its the number one university in the world. Its extremely hard to get into and it was an excellent learning experience from which I benefited a great deal. Lots of people from all over the world would love to have the chance I had and I recognise that it was a great privilege on my part. But no in Northern Ireland its a subject to be mocked. I got a really good and expensive education at Harvard and I would like the chance to put it to good use in Northern Ireland. I think I am allowed to mention it when a direct comment is made about my earlier education but I don’t suppose it really matters. I think your attitude says more about you than me. I just don’t understand why you guys still hate me so much really. Shame the post was edited I would have liked to read it. Still feel free to email it to me as my email address unlike yours is genuine.
Pete, fair enough just couldn’t resist and in my view some it fair game as the lack of intellectual consistency on this issue by some unionists is worth note. Either the union means that a wider national politic exists or it doesn’t if it doesn’t then why the union at all? I don’t see the logic of people looking for a special opt out for NI on the issue. If they have a personal opposition to abortion then by all means vote against it in the national parliament but looking for a special NI exception on something like this because you know that the overwhelming majority of your countrymen/women don’t agree with you doesn’t seem to me to make much sense as a unionist.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 07:11 PMSadly as so often we have wandered from the pathway. THe prob we have are two sets of politicians still scared of the men of the cloth. Regardless of what everyone says or thinks hundreds of women travel to GB for an abortion, merrily waved good bye by our politicians in an incredibly NIMBY sort of way. If Jeffrey or any other of our gallant MLA really believed in being anti abortion then they should seek to change to law restricting travel to procure an abortion - otherwise it is is NIMBYism at its worst
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 07:15 PMI presume our Unionist politicians believe and support Westminster as being the sovereign authority in NI and if so Westminster can pass what laws it thinks fit even if these refer to devolved matters.
Westminster rules!!!!!!Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 07:56 PMDuncan, I don’t know whether to laugh at you for your self-destructive envy of Jeffrey, MP, or pity you for the sheer levels of bitterness you’ve displayed on this thread. But do let me and my fifty quid assure you of this: I don’t hate you. Find you a constant source of slightly dim-witted pleasure? Yup, but hate you? Not even slightly.
FWIW I can neither see a problem with abortion (it’s plainly *not* infanticide) nor can I see a problem, constitutional or otherwise, with the UK within itself containing a multiplicity of approaches towards its availability, or lack thereof.
And Duncan, trust me, no one is impressed with Harvard MBAs these days. Getting into the college is, I suppose, a reasonable mark of personal academic distinction, but honestly, HBS? That really is, for better or for worth, on a par with doing ones undergraduate degree at, well, Essex. But that’s the thing: you really are taken in by these external signifiers, aren’t you? As I said, pity is my other main feeling when I contemplate you. But do otherwise keep us laughing, eh?
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 08:07 PMOne emotion I do not feel for Jeffrey is envy. Its disdain not bitterness.
FYI: Its an MPA not an MBA I went to the Kennedy School of Government not the Business school. Going to college mattered to me because no one in my family had ever gone before so I was pleased to get in, even to Essex. Essex is a decent enough university and the law department is reasonably well regarded. I had a good time there myself and I may even have learned something. Sorry its not up to your high standards. Not sure how this relates to the main point of the thread though but it obviously entertains you. Still nice to see we agree on the issue of abortion itself.
External signifiers? Hmmm. Maybe so but I suppose I will just have to work on my own sense of self worth and self esteem a little more. Its an ongoing project.
Posted by on Oct 20, 2008 @ 08:54 PM
