Monday, May 12, 2008
“I’m hoping the Minister’s answer will help me understand the question…”
Anyone who knows Francie Brolly, also knows he is his own man. Was he gently poking fun at the party machine which had provided him with a near unintelligible question to ask his own party’s Minster of Agriculture? Some of his colleagues at the front clearly got the joke (including the Minister herself), the back bench boys (including Francie Molloy, just out of shot) remained fairly stoney-faced throughout. Which raises another question: are our MLAs being allowed by their parties to be independent legislators? It’s a question of particular concern regarding Sinn Fein MLAs, who alone are paid ‘an industrial wage’ by their party rather than the state. As a footnote, I’ve played the clip several times, and I’m still none the wiser. I hope Francie fared better!
Mick Fealty @ 08:30 PM
Mick
The issue of Sinn Fein’s MLAs being paid a wage is entirely unrelated to this matter, and it’s really a stretch to suggest that Sinn Fein in particular are not allowing their MLAs to be ‘independent legislators.’Anyone listening to the goings-on in either Leinster House or, more blatantly, the House of Commons during Ministerial Question Time will see a similar pattern- delivered by individuals considerably more practised in the ‘game’, however- and I mean that as a compliment to Francie.
I’ve watched Stormont Live enough to see DUPers/ UUPers and even the SDLP resort to this practice when their Minister is at the plate.Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 09:27 PMI’d like to see a YouGov type report on how often MLA’s have voted against their party line. Even though dissent is limited in other places I feel pretty sure you’d see 100% adherence to party line on every issue at Stormont. Which does beg the question why pay for 108 of them when you could just have a party representative with a weighted vote delivering exactly the same parroting of agreed party position.
I’d be delighted to be corrected and be directed to the dissenting votes against a party position.
What Francie’s very humorous delivery does demonstrate is; while it may be normal practice no one seems to have gone to the trouble of explaining to him the question he was given to ask and clearly involved detailed research for the prepared answer.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 09:40 PM>>are our MLAs being allowed by their parties to be independent legislators?<<
Except over agreed issues like abortion and other matters regarding conscience, I know of no party that allows their members to vote independently, or act arbitrarily without consulting their party. Bendy Wendy Alexander apart that is.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 09:46 PMFair enough point Chris, but can you think of another example, in any of the chambers you list, where the legislators are so clearly unaware of the meaning of their questions or answers?
And find it so amusing?
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:31 PMQuestion time is based on the cut and thrust of debate - the unforeseen supplementary and the unintended remark. In Stormont everyone is in Govt and cannot be removed, Question Time is completely rigged and a waste of time
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:49 PMThe sytz them civil services in Stormont dream up is weird!
Could have answered that in 10 words
Would someone remind them that they are just an off shore provincial subordinate administrative support service for a wee small provincial offshoot of a third rate post colonial power that has lost its way in the world an not get ahead of themselves; versus their neighbouring state primarily to the south and west of them which is an independent state full member of the EU OECD etc and amongst the 10 richests states on this planet.Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:06 PMIt’s a question of particular concern regarding Sinn Fein MLAs, who alone are paid ‘an industrial wage’ by their party rather than the state.
Mick, Sinn Fein MLAs are paid by the state just like everyone else. I think the point is that they are required to donate a significant proportion of their salary into the party.
Clearly it would be nonsense for Sinn Fein MLAs to give all their money to the party, out which the party would pay them. They’d pay income tax twice.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:12 PMIt was an excellent example of DARDspeak.
By the way, Michelle, it’s not YOUR department. It’s ours. Time someone reminded you and your colleagues of this.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 02:37 AMAlways nice to see the politicians laugh in our faces as they make a mockery of the system we entrust them with.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 03:09 AMTo avoid voting against their parties many people either stay in their room or if they are in the chamber slip out to the loo during the vote. Sometimes an issue comes up which is a constituency issue which divides members of the same party,eg hospital at Omagh or Enniskillen.Maternity services, City or Royal.I personally believe that even though you represent a party -you are paid to represent your constituents and that does not always dovetail with party policy,you must do your duty to your constituents.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 04:36 AMI personally believe that even though you represent a party -you are paid to represent your constituents and that does not always dovetail with party policy,you must do your duty to your constituents.
Just as well you were never elected to the NIA… you would have have a hell of a whipped ass by now.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 06:24 AMI was - in 1998
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 06:51 AMSo can you give us half a dozen examples of when you voted against the whip of the SDLP assembly group please?
Remember the votes are all on hansard online so we can check.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 07:19 AMBob, I think goes to the heart of the matter. And I take Chris’s point that planted questions happen in other places too. But I’ve rarely seen a situation where the MPs/TDs are required by the party to ask questions they don’t understand themselves. If they don’t, what chance have we?
I realise this may be an uphill battle, but the legislative assembly is supposed to be accountable to the public. This kind of obfuscation (whether by design or default) is cutting us out. Hell, it’s even cutting out the MLAs.
PE,
There are independents in the Dail, and mavericks in the Commons who clearly speak as sentient human beings in the chamber, no matter how they vote in the end. Robust exchange on the floor is good. Not that there seemed to be much scope for that in this debate.
CS,
You could be right of course, in which case I will happily withdraw the point. It would be useful to have some clarification on that.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 07:55 AMCome on you chaps, you voted for an assembly without an opposition, now Mick wants individual MLAs to step into the breech,
or should I say rush over the cliff like lemmings.Here’s an original idea, dump this democratic dictatorship and get yourself a democratic parliamentary system which you could be proud of, something similar to that which exists in the rest of the EU might be a start.
As to the shinners and the industrial wage, long may it last, it is about the only thing the shinners do that irritates the unionist politicians these days.
By the way, unless there is a glitch at slugger central, Francie’s speech has been censored in Turkey. Make of that what you will, inshallah?
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 08:04 AMMick,
You could be right of course, in which case I will happily withdraw the point. It would be useful to have some clarification on that.
Mick, here is a page describing the salaries paid to our MLAs last year. All of the Sinn Fein MLAs are listed.
As I say, when SF say their elected reps draw an average industrial wage, I believe what they mean is that they agree (possibly sign some kind of contract) to contribute most of their salary back to the party, keeping what they consider a modest subsistence. The alternative would be for the assembly to pay the salaries directly to SF. That would be quite preposterous, aside from creating all kinds of problems with tax and bookkeeping.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 08:20 AMJoseph - can’t read link that well but think it says standard salary for MLA about €30k? - I dunno but that don’t sound a lot for a legislator.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 08:46 AMAh yes the shinners get paid the industrial wage. As someone in the press once told me it makes for a great story if only it were true.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 10:05 AMMickhall - youtube is banned in Turkey because of uploaded videos slagging Attaturk one of the founding fathers of Turkey
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 10:09 AMThe Industrial wage thingy doesn’t take into account the generous “allowances and expenses” - I’d say they are all coming out with at least double the industrial wage
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 10:11 AMMerhaba tienan,
Sledgehammer and nut springs to mind.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 10:13 AMWhen there’s damn all industry, what’s an ‘average industrial wage’ anyway?
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 12:03 PM“When there’s damn all industry, what’s an ‘average industrial wage’ anyway?”
55 pounds a week dole money
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 12:31 PM@Mark
I’d also like to see something that shows how members vote - like the Public Whip for Westminster.
Does Stormont make the basic information on members’ votes available in any kind of usable form? I couldn’t find it on their site - but then I didn’t look very hard.
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 12:48 PMI think we need to draw a distinctions between types of questions here.
1: Sometimes ministers will hand a soft question to a party colleague to draw out information they have found difficult to get out of their own civil servants, or to put pressure on a project that they think civil servants are dragging their heels own. Maybe OK?
2: Sometimes ministers will hand a soft question to a party colleague to allow them to detail in the response some progress/development on an issue, this is what Gildernew was doing in this instance, you may say what’s the harm? she gets to announce her initiative and the member gets his mug on the telly right? WRONG it wastes chamber time for other proper questions, the minister has a big press office to make announcements of progress (riveting as that one was i wouldn’t fancy being the Press Officer to sell that one in!)
3: Lastly we have real questions asked to challenge ministers on their performance and that of their department, I say more of these please.
It is worth noting that we are not the only legislature to suffer from the scurge of category 2, it really does infuriate when we see people on a Wednesday afternoon in the supposed ‘Mother of all Parliaments’ bowl an ‘underarm’ to a PM who is more than capable of standing 30mins of rough treatment from the opposition.
At least Francie had the balls to clip the wings of whichever party hack backs up Gildernew, what’s the bets the next time he/she has a soft question to plant it doesn’t land on Francies desk?
Posted by on May 13, 2008 @ 12:54 PM
