Friday, January 20, 2006
IFA back Maze Stadium
Although the IFA has approved the plans for a new stadium to be built at the site of the Maze Prison, the backers of a rival bid to have one built in Belfast have argued that their bid is still live. There is some political resistence to the move in Belfast City Council.
Mick Fealty @ 11:21 AM
Tragic, absolutely tragic decision - “in principle”. Only 2 days after the Amalgamation of NI Supporters Clubs produced a 30 page document providing great detail on why the Maze is such a bad idea.
More here for anyone who wants it.
The IFA have just signed the death warrant “in principle” of Northern Irish football, and regardless of what Jim Boyce says, they’ve betrayed the fans.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 12:45 PMOutside of the 10 or 11,000 diehards who follow N.Ireland this is proving to be a monster bore for the rest of us. Most grass-roots members of the GAA are extremely sceptical about the whole idea and the Ulster Rugby council and fans are luke warm to say the least. The big fear among both sports is that Northern Ireland football fans seem to be already looking upon this stadium as their own personal property. Unfortunately for them the world does not revolve entirely around their preference for where the stadium is situated. They are simply one-third of the bodies who will be using it.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 01:15 PMIs there any genuine supporter out there from any of the three codes that genuinely is licking his or her lips at the thought of driving to a green field site ten miles outside of Belfast where there will be little atmosphere and to drink shite beer in some soulless toilet (along the lines of the Odyssey) before the game. Part of any big match day be it gaa, soccer or rugby is about the stroll to the stadium, the calling in for a few looseners on the way and the general banter with other supporters. Obviously this is another brainwave from the NIO Sports spinmeisters who brought us the Belfast Giants and the phenomenon of ice hockey that’s sweeping the six counties. Have any of these tossers ever been to a live match of any type? This idiocy has to be stopped and if the ruling bodies of the 3 sports concerned haven’t the balls to tell the government to get to fuck then their members need to make their presence felt especially within the gaa where the structures exist for grass roots opinion to be heard (can’t speak for soccer or rugby as i wouldn’t be too clued in to how the grass roots influence the associations).
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 01:37 PMThe idea of building it at Ormeau is a non starter. The traffic and parking problems alone would be emense, not to mention the loss of yet more green space in the city.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 01:47 PMThis is a joke. There must be an ulterior motive/brown envelopes at work here as no sane person can really believe that the Maze is preferable to sites in or near Belfast city centre. Yes the Maze has decent links to the M1 but as has been stated ad nauseum is the fact that it will become a soulless monstrosity stuck out in the sticks.
It needs to be part of the city and somewhere were people from outside Belfast can come to make a night of it. Have a few pints and a bit of craic before the match, dander to the match and maybe head out for a meal and/or a night on the drink afterwards!
Part of any big sporting occassion is the craic before the match - see Dublin, Edinburgh, Seville etc.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 02:19 PMAlan
Agree totally. The gaa doesn’t need yet another stadium Clones can hold c.40,000, Casement Park can hold c. 28,000 any other matches that draw a bigger crowd than this, in reality this will only be the Ulster football Final (once a year)can be accomodated in Croke Park.
Ravenhill and Windsor can both be renovated at their current sites, probably the option most current rugby and soccer supporters would want. There’s no need to blow 50-100M on a stadium that will only be filled once or twice a year when the health service is creaking like a 20 year old Ford Escort.Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 02:22 PMMacswiney
If you read the news you can see that NI fans do not look at it as their own personal property - they are, if anything more sceptical than GAA or Rugby fans. Most of our objections (location, infrastructure etc) are valid whatever the sport.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 03:24 PMI understand your point Blandy but the Ormeau Park option is surely a dead duck. Some security sources have been quoted as saying privately that the prospect of thousands of Northern Ireland fans heading through the Lower Ormeau and Markets for matches would be a logistical and security nightmare. The same might apply to GAA fans who would be perilously close to the loyalist areas close to the Ormeau Park. The whole notion of infastructure in the city is a red herring im afraid. The Government are’nt going to allow the stadium there under ANY circumstances. The Maze venue is much easier to control from a security aspect and that consideration will win the day.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 04:23 PM*...will be little atmosphere and to drink shite beer in some soulless toilet (along the lines of the Odyssey) before the game. Part of any big match day be it gaa, soccer or rugby is about the stroll to the stadium, the calling in for a few looseners on the way and the general banter with other supporters....
Posted by bog warrior on Jan 20, 2006 @ 12:37 PM *
...careful you don’t let that beer glass get in the way of watching the game. Try watching the game (ie. the one which includes the ball) rather than using the occassion to get sloshed and mouth off, bothering others.
As a project, try and watch a game without being drunk; listen to the pure shite and bile shouted, for all to hear, that comes from some supporters. Why do I sometimes cringe while trying to watch sport (hint review your behaviour).
You should be able to enjoy the occassion if it were played on a green field on the moon. If you’re dependant on an arena / stadium to create an atmosphere, then you lack soul and love of the game.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 04:23 PMPure trash from Niall there.
I fully agree with Bog Warriors comments on this thread.The IFA have sold Northern Ireland football down the river with this decision. Shame on them.
Jim Boyce and those who voted ‘yes’ have betrayed the fans.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 04:38 PMSports stadia not in or right beside urban/sub-urban areas do not work elsewhere in these islands or in Europe.
Why be so arrogant as to think it would be any diffrent here?
Unless, of course, there was a different agenda to the needs of sport and maxmising economic spin-offs all along, with a pre-determined outcome from the outset.
Ah, yes, that would be it ....
I’d still be amazed if it is ever built mind.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 04:58 PMNiall
Never been sloshed at a match, have always watched the match and have never been drunk at a match and have not bothered other people with my mouthing off (except the referee). On the other hand have usually had two or three pints beforehand and a couple afterwards (if i’m not driving). I take it the point your trying to make is something to do with drink leading to loutish behaviour by some supporters at matches. Undoubtedly that is the case for some people. i would argue that most people who attend matches and have a few beers before and after are merely being sociable and its part of the day and helps the atmosphere. I take it you don’t indulge in the devil’s buttermilk yourself?
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 05:13 PM“The big fear among both sports is that Northern Ireland football fans seem to be already looking upon this stadium as their own personal property.”
This couldn’t be further from the truth!!
There’s nothing I’d love to see more than action from the Rugby or GAA boys on this but I don’t believe that will happen.
Ulster rugby fans are no happier than football fans are BUT they’re ok - Ulster will continue to play at Ravenhill, not the Maze (they have agreed to play Heineken Cup matches there IF they qualify, which has happened once in about 8 years! Since the final is at a neutral venue, their commitment amounts to one match every 8 years on current performance!)
GAA fans won’t make a noise, (and this is just the impression I get) even the ones who aren’t happy with the plan, because they just don’t care - the fact is that they have 2 alternative grounds in Casement and Clones, the latter of which will apparently be upgraded to 50k capacity by the Monaghan county board - rendering the Maze useless (the GAA will need to fit 60,000 people into the 42,500 capacity stadium at the Maze just to match the money they’d make with a full house of 50k at Clones because of the VAT exemption).
So Rugby have an alternative in Ravenhill - they’re happy.
GAA have 2 alternatives in Clones and Casement (and as mentioned, Croke Park!) so they’re ok.Football will have no alternative. When the IFA vacate Windsor Park, Linfield will likely have to do the same as they won’t be able to afford the upkeep without NI ticket sales. The land will be sold and probably developed leaving the football team with nowhere to go back to (except possibly a rumoured 8k seater Danny Blanchflower stadium at Sydenham - great!)
That’s why football fans are being so vocal - they have to be.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 06:13 PMBeano agree with your comments. The gaa doesn’t need another stadium but ordinary gaa supporters (like me) should be sqealing the place down because the funding a Maze stadium is going to mop up could be spent a lot better elsewhere. The problem is the Ulster Council (i believe) haven’t been up front in saying this because they don’t want to be slated by the government and media when the whole farce collapses.
To me the best option is to leave the gaa to their own devices, they’re sorted for stadia. Re-develop both Windsor and Ravenhill to their current capacities and everyone’s happy execpt for a few top civil servants who don’t get the kudos a stadium project would bring and a few property developer/business types who don’t get to make a killing.
BTW Niall are you in favour of the Maze stadium, your post didn’t say.Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 06:56 PM“The problem is the Ulster Council (i believe) haven’t been up front in saying this because they don’t want to be slated by the government and media when the whole farce collapses.”
The government have managed to part-blackmail part-bribe the GAA - First they tell everyone the stadium won’t go ahead if all 3 sports don’t sign up, leaving the GAA to either agree or be seen as spoilers for ‘the rest of us’, however they sweeten the deal by finding an extra £35m to build 12,500 seats, despite telling us previously there was no more money to buy land in Belfast.
Don’t you just love this government?
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 07:16 PMWill be interesting to see if the gaa stay on board after this stage and if the thing ever gets built (which i doubt but i’ve learned not to underestimate New Labour’s ability to plough on with projects they like but which ordinary people hate or don’t give a damn about) how many top gaa matches will be played there per year. I’ll be very surprised if government manage to get a firm commitment from the Ulster Council to play inter county ulster championship games there. The Vat exemption is also a huge consideration for the Ulster Council (although they will never admit it).
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 07:54 PMI have to agree that the issue is a bore to the majority of sports fans here.
10 or 12 thousand supporters throwing ‘the dummy in the corner’ because they haven’t the support to fill the ground.
I’m just amazed that the media bothers to give it so much publicity.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 07:56 PMYeah, super commentary there, Roger.
Idiot.Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 08:21 PM* .. I take it you don’t indulge in the devil’s buttermilk yourself?
Posted by bog warrior on Jan 20, 2006 @ 04:13 PM *oh how wrong can you be ..?!?! but I believe there’s a time a place for everything. I find it frustrating that some consider sporting occassions an episode just to get drunk.
I was in Healy Park for the Dubs vs Tyrone last year and some of the shite spoken was very, very irritating - not friendly banter but blathering by gobshites designed to rouse tempers. One of my worst memories of watching Irel play was because of alchos and I’ll never forget the Welsh rugby fan pissing down his own leg in Landsdowne
Thanks for your mannerly comeback unlike the other who wrote of my posting.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 09:24 PMOne day the truth of this matter will dawn on Northern Ireland society - a pipe dream from the NIO will end up leaving us with a £100m + stadium (when do these projects ever come in under budget?) that no -one has a desire to play in.
Never mind the white elephant parallel - no-one is bothering to point out the elephant in the corner - this deal is being driven / accomodated because the DUP and SF has finally agreed on something and the government want to make it stick. A stadium for a shrine (or an International Centre for Conflict TRansformation!)
the sports bodies have been encouraged in public and blackmailed in private to sign up by some political bullying and the two main NI parties are complicit.
That Belfast put up such a poor show is to the shame of our elected representatives.
This is a sordid deal.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 11:07 PMMuch as I am a regular visitor to this site, I can’t help but feel frustrated that some of the dearly felt and well articulated views above are merely to each other here, when they could have been - and still can be - aired widely in public and to these same politicans.
That said, the role of the media on this issue to date has been risible - a mixture of going along with a ‘happy-clappy’ story, and in some cases a feeling that they have actually bought-into the project.
And not a single piece of critical analysis or forensic exposition of the project that I can think of.
A woeful effort if you could even call it that.
Posted by on Jan 20, 2006 @ 11:52 PMGavBelfast -
Spot on - because its free it must be good - and I saw an article in the Belfast Telegragh by Adrian Logan that the IFA must say yes to the Maze - he must have written the article on a square square of loo roll.
Now the real benefit to the IFA and Ulster Branch woudd be to go along with this and work to get something which will be of more significant benefit to local sport.
And that is VAT savings on ticket sales - The GAA are laughing here - they can support the stadium in the knowledge that any large Ulster game will go to Clones as they do not have to pay the VAT on gate receipts down south.
Add VAT savings to any ground hire fees - and the Maze will not be used by the GAA.But if the GAA can ring the VAT concession (by working with the other sports) out of the English Rule ministers, then the GAA retain the option of using the Maze - if Casement/Clones are not suitable.
Not to mix threads here - but of course - you can’t have different tax regimes in different parts of the Kingdom?
The good news for Ulster Branch and IFA that they can use the GAA’s strength to drive the bargain they should want - and that is not necessarily a ground ( - but a 17.5% increase in revenue - and the GAA would see a kicker in club and county receipts.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 02:14 PMIt is obvious that there is a pro-Belfast / anti-anything outside Belfast bias among those against this proposal. The proposed Maze site is more than OK. It’s only 8 or 9 miles from the Belfast end of the M1. (Of course 8 or 9 miles travelling in the other direction towards Belfast is shorter.)
It’s also a large site;
just off the M1;
in close proximity to our main airport and so has good connections to all parts of the province;
parking and travelling through congested traffic is always an issue nowadays. (A lot of prospective fans are put off by difficult travelling);
If you forget about the sites past history - it’s also a relatively politically neutral area.;
It’s easier to manage security.The large out of town stadia in England, e.g. The Reebok stadium, don’t seem to suffer from a lack of atmosphere and the drinkers among fans have always found a way to have a few jars on the way to matches!
With some positive thinking it could develop into an ‘all-round’ site for concerts, exhibitions, sports coaching and training.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 07:06 PMCynic, on the whole that was riddled with holes and inaccuacies.
You are suiting your own agenda to suggest that this is a Belfast v The Rest argument when it is nothing of the sort. Compared to Belfast, Maze would be harder to get to for most in Northern Ireland except those close to it. It would most likely also make travelling extremely difficult for those of limited means.
The Reebok Stadium is IN Bolton, albeit on the out-skirts. It has a train station a few minutes walk away. Will the Maze?
“If you forget about the sites past history - it’s also a relatively politically neutral area.”
That is well down my list of concerns, but your premise makes very little sense and IS a major obstacle for an awful lot of people. Leave the past behind, we are told, a new stadium is part of a new start, but there’s going to be an ugly big reminder of our sordid past right beside it. Aye right.
Apart from a minority of pretty selfish people who live near it and unquestioning but useful fools, I see little support for this project from genuine sports fans who it will rely upon to sustain it.
I am willing the Belfast proposals, especially the Ormeau one, and wider common-sense to save us from the toadies and overlords who have a grandiose political agenda but couldn’t give a fig about sport or the economic spin-offs that can flow from doing this properly - in Belfast.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 08:38 PMSorry, there simply is nowhere in Belfast to put a stadium.
Besides, why should it be in central Belfast? Belfast’s main cemetry isn’t in Belfast, the Department of Education isn’t in Belfast, even Stormont isn’t exactly central.
Stadiums ‘out in the sticks’ have hosted the last three World Cup Finals, so they’re not all bad!
Bearing this all in mind, consider that we have two options - leave it as is (with Windsor Park’s capacity greatly reduced in 15 months), or support the vision for a stadium at Maze.
The latter is not ideal, but it’s better than the former.
Posted by on Jan 21, 2006 @ 08:51 PM
