Friday, May 02, 2008
“if the Maze was not to go ahead..”
The Culture, Arts and Leisure Minister, the DUP’s Edwin Poots, has already speculated about what he could do with the £70million earmarked for any development at the Maze stadium site this year - and Sinn Féin’s Paul Butler responded here. Now the Finance Minister, the DUP’s Peter Robinson, has confirmed that he will bring his decision on the business case to the Executive within three weeks. Presumably before moving into another office in the Executive. Adds More quotes here. From the BBC report.
[Peter Robinson] also said that if the Maze stadium was not given the go-ahead, stadia across NI would be improved. “I don’t think it is sufficient to say that if the Maze was not to proceed that we would walk away and do nothing with it,” he said. “No more is it sensible to say that if the Maze was not to go ahead that we would do nothing with football, rugby and GAA facilities elsewhere.”
Pete Baker @ 12:26 PM
Yeah, a Belfast Robbo Towers!
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 07:52 PMWillowfield,
I don’t believe that money for the Maze or whatever replaces it has yet been allocated.If you check the DCAL budget you’ll see that the budget allocation for sports infrastructure is as follows:
2008 - 8.2 million
2009 - 31.2
2010 - 36.4
2011 - 44I assume the 70 million of which Poots speaks is in here. It would certainly explain the sudden 400% increase in spending.
Also, why would Mr Poots be talking about re-allocting money if it isn’t already in his department and therefore included in the DCAL budget?
If you check Sport NI you will see that it has already provisionally allocated 53 million to Olympic and Paralympic projects.
I’m open to correction on this if anybody can provide evidence to the contrary.
Jo,
in the Guardian:“Robinson is understood to be planning to offer the site as the new home of the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society’s annual show.”
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 08:10 PMGeorge
I think thats a very good location.
Despite my earlier comments I would like the Rugby peeps, the GAA and the soccer fraternity to have stadia that suits their purpose. I will never be at any of them. In an ideal world, a bigger Windsor Park, on the frontier between Prod and Taig Belfast, would be a place where both GAA and soccer would be played.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 08:15 PMWhat else could Maze be used for?
The CTC Sinn Fein are after.
The various sports then get their own nice bonus, Windsor gets a polish, the GAA and Ulster Rugby get their own bung...everyone’s a winner, except Poots and Donaldson who’ll have a bit of explaining to do to their constituents once those SF tour buses start running up to the Maze Museum.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 08:16 PMReality check people.
320 acres of land with protected sites contained within. Proposal to use the land that was viewed as a crucible of the conflict to build an agreed shared space for use by all shades and creeds. The new stadium to show the world that we can move out of conflict and share a joint future, with all the major sporting traditions of this island catered for. Within the site a conflict transformation centre which would be an invaluable educational tool to prevent any recurrance of the strife that engulfed us for the past 40 years. This site would show the world that we are prepared to put the old ways behind us and move on into a shared future and help other conflicted regions to solve disputes.
Who came up with this dream scenario?
Did they take into consideration the siege mentality of unionists? The intransigence shown by many within the unionist population, especially their leadership, will be their undoing. There still exists an opportunity to undertake a flagship project to help define our shared future, this is about to be removed because the unionists are afraid of ghosts.The same tired arguments about Windsor or a mythical stadium in the east are just time consuming and tinged with a desire to return to unionist hegemony.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 08:25 PMRealist
Discussion is a lot easier when perfectly intelligent people don’t play fuckwit.
Where in Belfast will the stadium be, Realist?
More to the point: who is paying for it?
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 08:27 PMCalm down Ard Eoin, the CTC will most likely be built anyway - wait and see.
Your post illustrates the underlying problem of the Maze project however - tying the needs of sports in with political ideals. You can’t force sporting organisations into something that holds no benefit for them, just for the feelgood factor.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 08:30 PMArd Eoin
Perhaps if the NIO, Poots, SF, Howard Wells and their various lickspittles in the local press had been more honest from the very beginning about this project your dream may have come true.But:
Why do you think relevant information has had to be dragged out of the NIO under the FOI act?
Why do you think Wells, in particular, has told lies about what or what cannot be done with Windsor in its present form?
Why do you think eg the Belfast Telegraph has refused to cover the detailed analysis from the AONISC on the project?
Why do you think we won’t be seeing hundreds of private investors crying into their G and Ts when Robinson finally puts the White Elephant Stadium to rest?
It’s because in a sporting and economic sense the Maze never made sense...got that?
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 08:43 PMKensie,
The combined coffers of NI’s fanbase along with the massed ranks of the Irish League crowds could easily pay for a cracking 25,000 all-seater stadium- you can get them off the shelf at Toys’R’us in the Subutteo section.Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 08:45 PMIn the event of the plug getting pulled on the Maze, how in God’s name could the money ever be split fairly, without further bitterness and acrimony.
Look at the attendances committed to the Maze by the three sports bodies.
The GAA committed 150k bums on sets pa, the IFA 80k pa, and the IRFU 40k pa.
Its acknowledged that the GAA require a 40k + capacity, while soccer and rugby would settle for 25k.
To me, that looks like a firm starting point in working out the needs of each sport.
The only problem here is that the cost of a 40k capacity stadium stadium for the GAA would surely gobble up nearly all of the money that would have gone to built the Maze in the first place.
Upgrading Windsor is a no-no because it allegedly can’t get to a 25k capacity.
Similarly, Casement hasn’t got any room to be developed to the 40k the GAA require.You surely can’t get a new 25k soccer/rugby stadium, AND a 40k GAA stadium out of the original budget.
So what to do?
Well, splitting the money three ways may give the IFA and the IRFU enough to build, say a joint 25k stadium.
But it would clearly discriminate against the GAA.
The GAA’s need for a higher capacity stadium may be less urgent than the IFA’s, but is real nonetheless.
Casement has only 2500 seats. The remaining 30k capacity is on uncovered terraces. And it has no room to be upgraded.A third of the overall funding would be nowhere near enough for the GAA to build a stadium that meets their 40k requirement, especially a high quality one built to the same all seated, all covered standard of rugby/soccer’s theoretical new stadium.
So even though we have an EQUAL split financially, the outcome is far from EQUITABLE, in that the majority of GAA fans will still have to endure the elements while their soccer and rugby supporting brethren are sitting pretty in a publicly funded stadium.
Given that GAA fans constitute the majority of sports fans who would use a NI stadium in any one year (see original Maze commitment figures), their treatment in an equal three way carve up would surely be seen as discriminatory, and must be deemed politically unacceptable - well by the British Govt, if not the DUP.
The alternative is to allocate according to need, as per Maze committed attendance figures and desired capacity.
As already stated, you surely can’t get a new 25k soccer/rugby stadium, AND a 40k GAA stadium out of the original budget.
So the only alternative is to give all sports the same percentage of their likely stadium spend, ie
If the GAA reckon it will cost 40Million for a 40k stadium, they get 50% of that figure.
Similarly soccer/rugby would get 50% of their, say 25 Million cost.The likely problem here though is that Unionists will not be able to stomach the GAA getting the lions share of the funding.
Maybe the parallel is that Unionists haven’t yet accepted that the GAA is the largest spectator sport out of the three.
Regardless of the reasoning, I just can’t see Robinson going down this route.Which leads me to believe that the Maze proposal, as unpopular as it was, might still be the only fair way to distribute the funding in any sort of fair way without bitterness or accusations of discrimination.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 09:14 PMNot all of any stadium funding (for whatever sport) has to be public money for starters.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 09:17 PMDM - “Not all of any stadium funding (for whatever sport) has to be public money for starters. “
Certainly not, but additional funding doesn’t address the key issue of how to share out the funding in any sort of equitable way without increasing sectarian tensions.
I think the question of how address the GAA’s needs is an extremely sensitive and symbolic issue.
If the GAA base is discriminated against, or is perceived to have been discriminated against, nationalists will be questioning if they can ever really be treated equitably within NI.
The flip side is the difficulties of loyalists in accepting that the GAA is entitled to get more than both rugby and soccer’s individual allocations.
Especially when its support base is drawn almost exclusively from only one community.Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 09:34 PMWell this is where Robbo comes in - we shall see what money is available and how it gets divided. Assuming of course we aren’t all sharing a stadium somewhere else.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 09:36 PM“Well this is where Robbo comes in - we shall see what money is available and how it gets divided. Assuming of course we aren’t all sharing a stadium somewhere else.”
But is it solely his decision to make?
Do the shinners not have a veto?Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 09:40 PMIt’s not his decision to make but it’s him making the proposals. I think the question is how important is the CTC to SF, and is it their sole interest in the matter, or are they genuinely concerned for sporting provisions in NI?
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 09:51 PMTo put rugby’s case for a new stadium, the redevelopment at Ravenhill will replace terrace space with corporate boxes and will REDUCE the ground’s capacity down to 11,500. Overall revenue will increase because of the higher value of the corporate seats. Rugby is a professional sport and money matters, but the sport won’t be able to grow if the development at Ravenhill is reducing the capacity and making it, in effect, more exclusive.
The Ulster CEO has said on a number of occasions that expansion at Ravenhill would not be permitted because of planning issues, and UR can’t sell the ground for development, because of zoning.
Ulster used to be the best supported team in the Magners League but were overtaken by Leinster last season. Since their move to the RDS, Leinster has grown their average gate from 5,800 two seasons ago to over 14,000 this season. Standing on the terrace in the rain may appeal to die hard fans, but Leinster has demonstrated that you need comfortable seats to attract new fans.
Leinster has already overtaken Ulster with new facilities. Ulster’s Magners League rivals seem poised to do the same.
The Ospreys already have the new 20k Liberty Stadium.
Munster will be completing a new 26k stadium that will host the All Blacks later this year.
Cardiff Blues are moving to a new 25k stadium at Leckwith.
Llanelli Scarlets are building a new 15k stadium.
Newport/Gwent Dragons are building a new 15k stadium.
That is just the Magners League - many Guinness Premiership clubs and French Top 14 teams have similarly ambitious plans.
So Ulster’s Magners League rivals are building stadia ranging from 15k to 26k… while Ulster is reducing their ground’s capacity to 11.5k.
As I’ve said before, rugby is a professional sport and attendances matter to generate the money to pay players’ wages - both retaining local talent as well as attracting stars from the southern hemisphere.
I believe that Ulster does have the potential to grow significantly crowds given the population of the greater Belfast area, the comparative lack of sectarian baggage with the sport and regular fixtures against top class European and Irish rivals.
However there is no future for Ulster Rugby staying at Ravenhill… just a slow decline as the spending power of more ambitious rivals with better facilities gradually asserts itself.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 09:57 PM“However there is no future for Ulster Rugby staying at Ravenhill… just a slow decline as the spending power of more ambitious rivals with better facilities gradually asserts itself.”
Michael,
whats the general IRFU preference - the 35k seater Maze shared with all three sports, or a smaller 25k seater shared in Belfast shared with soccer only?
Is there any sense of reluctance about the latter option if accusations about the GAA getting frozen out start to get bandied about?
within the IRFU, is there any sense of the political sensitivities of the various options in any post Maze world?
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 11:16 PMAs a Catholic (for the want of a better label) and a GAA member, I’ve been following Ulster for the past six or seven years and have been to Ravenhill quite a few times. But it seems that for the likes of me, from a distance, when it comes to the big games, Ulster Rugby is a closed shop. Granted there ain’t that many tickets to go around but rugby, in a bigger ground, has the possibility of attracting big support from both sides of the community.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 11:20 PMPaul,
Is there any sense of reluctance about the latter option if accusations about the GAA getting frozen out start to get bandied about?within the IRFU, is there any sense of the political sensitivities of the various options in any post Maze world?
They are currently making all their money out of holding games at Croke Park and the Irish government is stumping up 191 million for the new Lansdowne Road so I reckon they’ll be very careful of following whatever line that takes this into account.
That said, this is an organisation that will cut its tickets to rugby fans to get more corporate sales (it’s not just Ulster Rugby) so who knows who they’d get into bed with for a buck.
But shafting the GAA and the Irish Government is hardly the wisest move for the IRFU.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 11:33 PM“It’s not his decision to make but it’s him making the proposals. I think the question is how important is the CTC to SF, and is it their sole interest in the matter, or are they genuinely concerned for sporting provisions in NI? “
DM,
my guess is that the Shinners prime concern is the CTC.
That being said, I can’t see them acquiescing in any carve up of funds on anything other than need, ie the GAA get the lion’s share.On that basis, I think its safe to say there will be no cross-community agreement on this one.
Its possible that we might have to wait for a regime change to the UUP to get any movement on this one.
Disregarding McNally’s campaign to exclude the GAA from any new stadium, its clear that the UUP policy is much warmer towards the Maze.
Reg Empey sees the concept as workable, and lauds the UUP’s role in getting the Maze site off the Govt for free.Posted by on May 03, 2008 @ 06:01 AMwhats the general IRFU preference - the 35k seater Maze shared with all three sports, or a smaller 25k seater shared in Belfast shared with soccer only?
Mike Reid, the Ulster CEO said this in the Ulster Rugby Supporters Club newsletter in February 2008:
Q:Is a stadium in Belfast likely?
Mike Reid: Belfast City & Drivers Jonas are now putting together a business plan. We have been asking for one for the last two and a half years and there have been lots of pretty pictures they’ve put in the papers but nothing of substance. For the first time we’ve met with a company who seem to be full-on focused on producing a business plan and we await that to see what it produces.Q: Is that putting you in a difficult position to consider it? If something better came up in Belfast are you already committed to the Maze?
Mike Reid: We are committed to the Maze, because it is the only thing that’s there. The difficulty here for all of us is we are in a country where we had politicians who when they were effectively in opposition, threw stones. Now they are in power, they have to show some leadership here, and I believe it is unfair on Sport to be put in a position where we have to decide. There is one option for us, which is the Maze. We had to fight for two years to get planning permission [at Ravenhill]. There was no political support whatsoever in that period of time, so if rugby grows, there is no future [at Ravenhill], unfortunately. We have to look at what is there and the Maze is the only thing there now, but in six months time if there’s something different there, even if we went to the Maze for our three big games a year, if someone built a 15000 capacity stadium in Belfast for rugby and soccer to play at, I’d play at it.
Posted by on May 03, 2008 @ 07:48 AMMichael/ Anybody Else,
I’ve never heard of this Belfast City & Drivers Jonas proposal. Have you any more info on this?
For starters, have these Belfast City & Drivers Jonas proposers engaged with /canvassed the GAA?
On what basis will they determine optimal capacity, ie with GAA, or without it?
If the GAA have been excluded, who made the decision to exclude them Belfast City Council, or Drivers Jonas?
Will alternative schemes be produced, one with the GAA onboard, and one for only soccer and rugby?
Has anyone addressed political/legal concerns re excluding the GAA?
Posted by on May 03, 2008 @ 08:55 AMI’d be quite interested in having a look around the H blocks anyway.
Is it possible to visit at the moment?
Posted by on May 03, 2008 @ 09:25 AMOff topic but why not debate with my fellow Ulster Gael’s.
Does anyone know the real story with Ciaran McDonald? After reading different local rags one gets the impression that he is out of the panel full stop. Then the Mayo Advertiser stated yesterday that the door is still open for him on the panel.
So what is to be believed?
Personal opinion he is a class act and could even be considered as an impact sub !
On that note when the 30 strong panel is named is it final ?
As the championship progresses can the panel be changed ?Do you think that Mayo’s best this year will be a Connacht tile or can we hope for a second and third visit to Croker ?
Posted by on May 03, 2008 @ 09:39 AMPaul,
Drivers Jonas say a 30,000-seater Belfast stadium could be developed for £65 to £70 million.They identified three viable locations which wouldn’t have infrastructure issues:
Ormeau Park, Maysfield, the Danny Blanchflower/Tommy Patton parks.
Posted by on May 03, 2008 @ 09:48 AM
